Need Engineering help to build automatic water treater

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cjmc
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Need Engineering help to build automatic water treater

Postby cjmc » Thu Mar 08, 2018 7:18 pm

So there are some electrolyte products out there on the market that I would like to try in a backgrounding yard (Kansas) getting high risk heavily srunk cattle out of the East & Southeast USA.

My hope is by adding the electrolytes (along with a dab of protein and energy as well) to the water it will ultimately increase profitability by reduce the amount of cattle we end up treating.

The obvious hurdle is that all the water tanks are on floats. So I have to design and build something that dispenses electrolytes into the water tank at the correct ratio.

I have come up with two potential ways of doing this. One is mechanical (I prefer this way) the other is electrical. The mechanical method would be to use a pump head & instead of having a motor turn the pump have the incoming water flow through the pump on its way to the float. The shaft that the motor typically spins will actually spin an auger that sits below a hopper full of electrolytes. The water flowing through the pump will spin the pump spinning the auger which will dump the mix into the tank. I'll do all the counting and math to figure out how many rotations is equal to one gallon & i'll size the auger & tinker with the electrolyte mix to make it work. I'm assuming i'll have to add a reducer as well to get the the rotations down, I don't really care though, only interested in the results.

The other is to use an digital water meter & PLC's. But I would prefer to see if I can do it mechanically first.

I bought a wind vane rotary pump head online & tried this out. Unfortunately the water just flowed right through the pump & didn't spin the shaft. Does anyone know what pump I should use? Or have any ideas how to make this work without electricity & computers?

Here is a video showing a pump doing what I want to do, mine will obviously have an auger and not a pulley though. I don't know what the name of that style of pump is though, so I don't know what to buy!!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZmHY9DkD1Hw

Would this roller pump work?
https://www.tractorsupply.com/tsc/produ ... pump?rfk=1
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Re: Need Engineering help to build automatic water treater

Postby jkwilson » Thu Mar 08, 2018 8:25 pm

I think I’d try a pump for the electrolytes with a switch to detect when the float is open. This way you’d add electrolytes when adding water. You’d dilute the electrolytes with enough water in their tank so you ended up with the right mix.
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Re: Need Engineering help to build automatic water treater

Postby Atimm693 » Thu Mar 08, 2018 8:56 pm

jkwilson wrote:I think I’d try a pump for the electrolytes with a switch to detect when the float is open. This way you’d add electrolytes when adding water. You’d dilute the electrolytes with enough water in their tank so you ended up with the right mix.


I think this is the way to go, as long as you have steady water pressure that does not fluctuate greatly.

Use a float switch that activates a solenoid valve on the water outlet to fill, tie your electrolyte pump to the float switch as well. Whenever water is flowing in, the pump should run at the same time.
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Craig Miller
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Re: Need Engineering help to build automatic water treater

Postby Craig Miller » Thu Mar 08, 2018 8:59 pm

Can you get electrolytes in liquid form?

Or maybe premix?
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Re: Need Engineering help to build automatic water treater

Postby Brute 23 » Thu Mar 08, 2018 10:17 pm

We do a decent amount of mixing of chemicals and such at work. There are quite a few different options depending on what volume amounts we are talking about.

Are the electrolytes in liquid or powder form?

I'm thinking it may be easier to batch mix the water in bulk then pump it to the individual troughs.

If it was in liquid form there are injection pumps that could be put in at multiple points. You can get electric, solar, pneumatic, and mechanical options.
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Re: Need Engineering help to build automatic water treater

Postby Craig Miller » Fri Mar 09, 2018 6:08 am

Brute 23 wrote:We do a decent amount of mixing of chemicals and such at work. There are quite a few different options depending on what volume amounts we are talking about.

Are the electrolytes in liquid or powder form?

I'm thinking it may be easier to batch mix the water in bulk then pump it to the individual troughs.

If it was in liquid form there are injection pumps that could be put in at multiple points. You can get electric, solar, pneumatic, and mechanical options.

That's kinda where I was headed with it Brute. Poultry farmers use something that puts medicine in the water where it enters each house. One of those would work. Might have to use more than one according to how much water your using.
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Re: Need Engineering help to build automatic water treater

Postby cjmc » Fri Mar 09, 2018 6:12 am

Brute 23 wrote:We do a decent amount of mixing of chemicals and such at work. There are quite a few different options depending on what volume amounts we are talking about.

Are the electrolytes in liquid or powder form?

I'm thinking it may be easier to batch mix the water in bulk then pump it to the individual troughs.

If it was in liquid form there are injection pumps that could be put in at multiple points. You can get electric, solar, pneumatic, and mechanical options.


Pretty small amounts, like 5-10 grams per liter of water. They would be in powder form.
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Re: Need Engineering help to build automatic water treater

Postby Brute 23 » Fri Mar 09, 2018 6:17 am

cjmc wrote:
Brute 23 wrote:We do a decent amount of mixing of chemicals and such at work. There are quite a few different options depending on what volume amounts we are talking about.

Are the electrolytes in liquid or powder form?

I'm thinking it may be easier to batch mix the water in bulk then pump it to the individual troughs.

If it was in liquid form there are injection pumps that could be put in at multiple points. You can get electric, solar, pneumatic, and mechanical options.


Pretty small amounts, like 5-10 grams per liter of water. They would be in powder form.


Does it need some kind of agitation to mix the powder?

Honestly, pre-mixing in a bulk tank then pumping would be the most efficient in my mind.

It would be pretty complicated to do at each water trough.
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Re: Need Engineering help to build automatic water treater

Postby Brute 23 » Fri Mar 09, 2018 6:23 am

We pump some of these bacterias down hole that supposedly bring the oil to surface. It's kind of simular to what you are doing.

Off the top of my head it seems like you could set a small tank and mix it daily by hand to see if you get the results you want.

If you liked the results you could look at automating it.

I wonder if you can mix the powder in a highly concentrated form just for the purpose of liquifing it?
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Re: Need Engineering help to build automatic water treater

Postby cjmc » Fri Mar 09, 2018 6:33 am

[/quote]

Does it need some kind of agitation to mix the powder?

Honestly, pre-mixing in a bulk tank then pumping would be the most efficient in my mind.

It would be pretty complicated to do at each water trough.[/quote]

I don't think it will need a tank mixer because the tanks are pretty small.

I do agree bulk mixing a liquid would be the best & then use injection pumps like the swine & poultry industry uses. But that's just not very practical in this situation. I think its possible if I could get my hands on one of those pumps in the video & the right gear box.
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Re: Need Engineering help to build automatic water treater

Postby Brute 23 » Fri Mar 09, 2018 7:03 am

The video goes to a guy making electricity with a wheel in the water. I guess I'm missing what pump you are talking about?

The link is a PTO roller pump for moving fluid. I'm not really sure how that plays a part? If you are wanting to flow water thru it in hopes of attaching your auger to it I doubt it will work like that.

I'm trying to think what could use water pressure in a pipe to turn a shaft. That's tough.
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Re: Need Engineering help to build automatic water treater

Postby cjmc » Fri Mar 09, 2018 7:16 am

That's what I was looking for. I'm not sure it will work either, but it's the simplest way I can think of that has a possibility of working.

My idea is to get a small one, then instead of the pulley attached to the shaft & hook a gear box up to it (to reduce the RPM of the output shaft) then an auger will be attached to the gearbox. Hopefully I can get it down to a couple rotations/ gallon. Then I could play with the auger size & product formula to hit the right mix /gallon of water in the tank.
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Re: Need Engineering help to build automatic water treater

Postby ddd75 » Fri Mar 09, 2018 7:39 am

the feedlots are pumping other things to the cattle to eliminate treatment.. I'd say but i'm sure no one cares.
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Re: Need Engineering help to build automatic water treater

Postby M-5 » Fri Mar 09, 2018 8:35 am

problem I see is that you will have to regulate the extra water that will be added when the tank refills . It will be diluted very quickly , when I was a kid we mass treated hogs with a nurse tank . we mixed it in a 1000 gal tank and then went to each trough and filled out of the tank . I remember it being a major pia .
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Re: Need Engineering help to build automatic water treater

Postby Brute 23 » Fri Mar 09, 2018 9:42 am

I was thinking originally of setting a highly concentrated tank by a cistern and injecting it in. From there just sending it down the entire water system to all the troughs.
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