Diesel Fuel Additive

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Stocker Steve
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Re: Diesel Fuel Additive

Postby Stocker Steve » Sun Aug 05, 2018 4:03 pm

sstterry wrote:My friend who used to be in the fuel business said always have a slight incline to your farm fuel tank so that any water from condensation will go to the bottom and flow backward away from the pump.


Sounds good, till the incline fills with water. Then what?
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Re: Diesel Fuel Additive

Postby sstterry » Sun Aug 05, 2018 4:03 pm

Image
This one is good for fuel stability and algae.
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Re: Diesel Fuel Additive

Postby Stocker Steve » Sun Aug 05, 2018 4:06 pm

snoopdog wrote:We try to use something in every tank, 2cycle oil, or marvel, or atf . If there is a sale on lucas or something else we'll stock up. I think algae is the predominant problem nowadays .


How well does ATF work? I have a bunch of it.
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Re: Diesel Fuel Additive

Postby Bright Raven » Sun Aug 05, 2018 4:12 pm

Stocker Steve wrote:
sstterry wrote:My friend who used to be in the fuel business said always have a slight incline to your farm fuel tank so that any water from condensation will go to the bottom and flow backward away from the pump.


Sounds good, till the incline fills with water. Then what?


The inlet to the pump on farm tanks is a good distance off the bottom. If you periodically drain the sludge and water off the bottom of your farm tank, you should not have a problem.
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Re: Diesel Fuel Additive

Postby sstterry » Sun Aug 05, 2018 4:24 pm

Stocker Steve wrote:
sstterry wrote:My friend who used to be in the fuel business said always have a slight incline to your farm fuel tank so that any water from condensation will go to the bottom and flow backward away from the pump.


Sounds good, till the incline fills with water. Then what?


What Ron said above. Like a lot of things though, it is easy to forget to do it from time to time.
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Re: Diesel Fuel Additive

Postby Caustic Burno » Sun Aug 05, 2018 4:35 pm

sstterry wrote:I have a friend that was in the fuel business and he insists that you must use an additive now, not just for the additional lubrication, but to also extend the shelf life and kill any algae that might grow in the tank.

I just finished a case for a friend where the supplier delivered a tank load of water contaminated diesel to his farm and it destroyed a fuel pump on one of his tractors. Until that time, I had no idea how quickly a very small amount of water can do a tremendous amount of damage to a diesel fuel pump.

The way that fuels are delivered to the wholesalers is interesting in itself. There are normally only one or two major pipelines and all fuel is delivered for every wholesaler through those same lines. Farm diesel, Exxon, BP, Marathon, etc all get their fuel through one large pipe from the refineries.


Diesel and gasoline are fungible products that run down the same pipeline and stored in the same tank farms. When you buy from Exxon you get their additive package that’s put in while they are loading the truck. The next load in the truck may be Shell’s and their package is added. Many a night I have swapped petroleum products with competitors to fill orders.
There is only one proprietary blend that is Amoco Water White that is not fungible. The reason for Diesel having water in it is due to steam stripping in the fractionation process lowering the boiling range by reducing partial pressure. Most of the excess water is drawn off in tankage. There is some that becomes miscible and takes longer to settle.
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Re: Diesel Fuel Additive

Postby Bright Raven » Sun Aug 05, 2018 4:46 pm

I was at TT's farm yesterday. We set up his farm tank. Thanks to me, lol, I convinced him and Dinky to drain the sludge off the bottom. Good thing we did, it looked like a cow taking a crap.
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TennesseeTuxedo
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Re: Diesel Fuel Additive

Postby TennesseeTuxedo » Sun Aug 05, 2018 4:52 pm

Bright Raven wrote:I was at TT's farm yesterday. We set up his farm tank. Thanks to me, lol, I convinced him and Dinky to drain the sludge off the bottom. Good thing we did, it looked like a cow taking a crap.


Yes you suggested it and yes we did It but keep in mind, that tank is roughly 50 years old and has had thousands of gallons of diesel run through it without incident. Hopefully that trend continues now that we've emptied it out.
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Re: Diesel Fuel Additive

Postby Bright Raven » Sun Aug 05, 2018 4:54 pm

TennesseeTuxedo wrote:
Bright Raven wrote:I was at TT's farm yesterday. We set up his farm tank. Thanks to me, lol, I convinced him and Dinky to drain the sludge off the bottom. Good thing we did, it looked like a cow taking a crap.


Yes you suggested it and yes we did It but keep in mind, that tank is roughly 50 years old and has had thousands of gallons of diesel run through it without incident. Hopefully that trend continues now that we've emptied it out.



Very true. The inlet off those transfer pumps is a good foot off the bottom. Taken in perspective, it was not bad.
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Re: Diesel Fuel Additive

Postby Texasmark » Sun Aug 05, 2018 5:30 pm

sstterry wrote:
snoopdog wrote:We try to use something in every tank, 2cycle oil, or marvel, or atf . If there is a sale on lucas or something else we'll stock up. I think algae is the predominant problem nowadays.

That and shelf life. My friend says that the reduced sulfur really affects the shelf life of the fuel and he recommends an additive to the entire tank to help preserve it longer if it is not used within 2 or 3 months.


I'd like to see some hard data on that and some verifiable references. May to be time to call the fire dept.
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Re: Diesel Fuel Additive

Postby Caustic Burno » Sun Aug 05, 2018 7:55 pm

Texasmark wrote:
sstterry wrote:
snoopdog wrote:We try to use something in every tank, 2cycle oil, or marvel, or atf . If there is a sale on lucas or something else we'll stock up. I think algae is the predominant problem nowadays.

That and shelf life. My friend says that the reduced sulfur really affects the shelf life of the fuel and he recommends an additive to the entire tank to help preserve it longer if it is not used within 2 or 3 months.


I'd like to see some hard data on that and some verifiable references. May to be time to call the fire dept.



Low sulfur has nothing to do with shelf life it actually destroys gum forming compounds. It depends if it is highly olefinic versus paraffins. Olefins can form gums in the presence of oxygen and light.
Olefinic Diesel will be more yellow in color paraffinic green.

https://www.bp.com/content/dam/bp-count ... diesel.pdf
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Re: Diesel Fuel Additive

Postby sstterry » Sun Aug 05, 2018 8:16 pm

Caustic Burno wrote:
Texasmark wrote:
sstterry wrote:That and shelf life. My friend says that the reduced sulfur really affects the shelf life of the fuel and he recommends an additive to the entire tank to help preserve it longer if it is not used within 2 or 3 months.


I'd like to see some hard data on that and some verifiable references. May to be time to call the fire dept.



Low sulfur has nothing to do with shelf life it actually destroys gum forming compounds. It depends if it is highly olefinic versus paraffins. Olefins can form gums in the presence of oxygen and light.
Olefinic Diesel will be more yellow in color paraffinic green.

https://www.bp.com/content/dam/bp-count ... diesel.pdf


I am just repeating what he told me. I will defer to you because you know what you are talking about and I don't. What is it that causes the modern fuel to degrade faster than the old?
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Re: Diesel Fuel Additive

Postby Caustic Burno » Sun Aug 05, 2018 8:46 pm

sstterry wrote:
Caustic Burno wrote:
Texasmark wrote:
I'd like to see some hard data on that and some verifiable references. May to be time to call the fire dept.



Low sulfur has nothing to do with shelf life it actually destroys gum forming compounds. It depends if it is highly olefinic versus paraffins. Olefins can form gums in the presence of oxygen and light.
Olefinic Diesel will be more yellow in color paraffinic green.

https://www.bp.com/content/dam/bp-count ... diesel.pdf


I am just repeating what he told me. I will defer to you because you know what you are talking about and I don't. What is it that causes the modern fuel to degrade faster than the old?


Olefinic fuels are made through catalytic cracking. The technology is basically pre WWII discovered by Eugene Huidry.This is nothing new, what is new through the years we have switched to higher sulfur crudes to meet demand. These heavier higher sulfur crudes through technology are ran through refineries and desulfurized versus sweet crudes.
The heavier high sulfur crudes contain more sulfur, chloride and nitrogen molecules that increases degradation.
I hope I explained this well.
The best example I can give is Mayan crude is about 80% resid. The best I can explain resid in simple terms is it is asplalt in consistency, these are very long hydrocarbon chains of C50+ broken down to C-16 cetane(diesel) and C-8 (gasoline)octane.
Every carbon atom must have four bonds typically a hydrogen. The longer the chain the more nitrogen, sulfur, chloride and ammonia molecules get attached. The sulfur molecules are removed a lot of the nitrogen and chlorides are left.
Today’s complex refinery can convert 90% of the barrel to gasoline blending components.

Sometimes peculiar things happen we don’t fully understand. Mayan crude ran through a Resid Hydrotreater makes
Fluorescent pink kerosene. This fails Water white specs for jet fuel so it gets dumped into the Diesel pool.
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Re: Diesel Fuel Additive

Postby sstterry » Mon Aug 06, 2018 4:59 am

Caustic Burno wrote:
Olefinic fuels are made through catalytic cracking. The technology is basically pre WWII discovered by Eugene Huidry.This is nothing new, what is new through the years we have switched to higher sulfur crudes to meet demand. These heavier higher sulfur crudes through technology are ran through refineries and desulfurized versus sweet crudes.
The heavier high sulfur crudes contain more sulfur, chloride and nitrogen molecules that increases degradation.
I hope I explained this well.
The best example I can give is Mayan crude is about 80% resid. The best I can explain resid in simple terms is it is asplalt in consistency, these are very long hydrocarbon chains of C50+ broken down to C-16 cetane(diesel) and C-8 (gasoline)octane.
Every carbon atom must have four bonds typically a hydrogen. The longer the chain the more nitrogen, sulfur, chloride and ammonia molecules get attached. The sulfur molecules are removed a lot of the nitrogen and chlorides are left.
Today’s complex refinery can convert 90% of the barrel to gasoline blending components.

Sometimes peculiar things happen we don’t fully understand. Mayan crude ran through a Resid Hydrotreater makes
Fluorescent pink kerosene. This fails Water white specs for jet fuel so it gets dumped into the Diesel pool.


Having zero knowledge of this, and after reading your post I did a quick search for one of the terms. I had no idea that there are so many different types of crude with so many varying sulfur contents.
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Re: Diesel Fuel Additive

Postby Caustic Burno » Mon Aug 06, 2018 6:31 am

I have seen crude come in that was water white to the consistency of peanut butter and color as well.
It’s not like the movies.
Diesel off a hydrocracker is an emerald green, so pretty you just want to look at in the quart sample bottle. High cetane as well. I have often wondered what a couple tanks would run like.

If you’re interested

https://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.php?id=9650

This was total garbage before 1970 today it’s fuel.
https://www.ogj.com/articles/print/volu ... udies.html
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