Can anyone tell me about these bulls?

Discuss the ins and outs of the showring.
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glacierridge
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Re: Can anyone tell me about these bulls?

Postby glacierridge » Tue Jan 21, 2014 2:14 am

shadyhollownj wrote:I second Taurus. You should not be breeding animals that are carriers intentionally. My neighbor does it and it bothers the be nice outta me. Who cares if you say they are only for meat. When that calf leaves your farm you have no clue what really happens to it down the road. I dont really know what else is going on here but what does the price of the last calf you sold have to do with breeding defects?



I concur.

If you wish to use carrier bulls... And not retain the calves for your OWN "management" and want to sell them...
You should have enough integrity to at the very least sterilize male and female calf alike so that others won't unknowingly attempt to use calves for breeding.
MARKET prospect calves I wouldn't be uncomfortable with.

Many people who would buy them would not guess them to be club calf sired bulls and would likely not even give it a second thought they could have some debilitating genetic problem written in their DNA.
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Re: Can anyone tell me about these bulls?

Postby Taurus » Tue Jan 21, 2014 11:02 am

Not a little while ago, I saw a club calf sired bull for sale on Craigslist. The ad don't say who his sire is but the owners sure keep LOTS of the daughters. Makes me wondering how many carrier animals leave the farm and not know what happened to them after they are being sold. Saw few club calves run in the ring at the sale barn not too long time ago and I don't know if the heifers went to the feedlots or someone's pasture.
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Re: Can anyone tell me about these bulls?

Postby VCC » Tue Jan 21, 2014 11:38 am

You buy a bull of off Craig’s list and do not know who the sire is you are asking for more issues than if it is a just TH or PHA carrier. If someone is buying heifers at the sale yard for cows, there is a 99 percent chance they are not going to be bred clubby, so the chance of them being bred to a carrier are slim to none. That is unless it is the same guy the buys the Craig’s List bull with unknown lineage, then who knows.
How many commercial Angus type cows carry the Angus defect gene? Breed them to no carrier your fine.
Breeding clubby, use clean cows on carrier bulls, clean bulls on carrier cows, manage your herd. If you plan on selling breeding stock test it and be ethical. If you plan on buying Clubby heifers or bulls make sure they are tested, clean by lineage, or breed clean if you do not know.

If you buy from a replacement sale or off of the ranch, the breeder should be up front about what they are selling you, and if it is a carrier they should let you know. If you are the guy who just buy whatever at the sales yard, let it breed with whatever else they get at the sales yard, they are going to have more issues than just genetic defects, these are the same people who do not vaccinate, worm, or manage their herd, go figure.

To tell you the truth, milking and calving issues are going to be your bigger problem with some of the clubby bred heifers even when bred to non clubby bulls but that is a different thread.
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Re: Can anyone tell me about these bulls?

Postby Chi496 » Tue Jan 21, 2014 8:10 pm

Taurus wrote:Not a little while ago, I saw a club calf sired bull for sale on Craigslist. The ad don't say who his sire is but the owners sure keep LOTS of the daughters. Makes me wondering how many carrier animals leave the farm and not know what happened to them after they are being sold. Saw few club calves run in the ring at the sale barn not too long time ago and I don't know if the heifers went to the feedlots or someone's pasture.


If your buying your replacements from Craigslist or out of the yards you get what you deserve. I don't even buy recips out of the yards. The only time I'm at the yards is to drop off junk cows or to pick up the check from said cows. That's what the yards is for.
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Re: Can anyone tell me about these bulls?

Postby DLD » Tue Jan 21, 2014 9:57 pm

Would this same conversation be happening if the original post had been asking about a tank full of old Angus semen, including known defect carriers? I very seriously doubt it. There are way more of those carrier Angus cattle out there floating around than there are carrier clubbies, and the chances of them accidentally getting mated back to another carrier of the same defect are far greater.

Whether it's Craigslist or your local sale barn, anyone that buys breeding stock without knowing how they're bred ought to be aware that comes with some risks. I'm not condemning buying from Craigslist or the sale barn, I buy cattle I can use wherever I find them - but I'm aware of what's out there. Most people that don't care - well, they just don't care, and none of us are going to change them.

If you're worried about getting an affected calf, just be sure to always use clean bulls, and you'll never get one.
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Re: Can anyone tell me about these bulls?

Postby OakCreekRanch » Wed Jan 22, 2014 1:07 am

I do have some concerns about the genetic defects spreading around via these carrier animals and the semen sales. It's not unheard of the retired show cows/heifers are sold as a commercial cow which is getting common in our area and I've seen club calf bulls being advertised in some beef sire catalogs, claiming that they are best bulls to producing some commercial replacements. I noticed that some catalogs do not show these club calf bulls' EPD and their defects. That goes for other breeds too. Anyone can get their hands on the semen from these affected bulls, not just for showring folks and used them on their commercial cows. That's right club calf semen are being sold to the commercial operators. I know few people did it and they are not even showing their cattle. IMO that is just irresponsible to breeding more affected animals (club calf or not) then have more animals to be tested for these detects. I read few articles that there are more affected club calf bulls being used than the clean bulls but it's just what I read from these articles and I really hope that club calf industry need to promote more clean bulls. I just wish that club calf industry (and other breed associations) needs to be ethnical and put a stop on breeding more affected animals but that's my opinion. Hope I didn't pi$$ed anyone for entitled my opinion here.
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Re: Can anyone tell me about these bulls?

Postby VCC » Wed Jan 22, 2014 10:36 am

Oak Creek, once a clean bull comes out that produces consistent winners you will see them go away from the carriers, until then I doubt anyone will stop using them. Most clean bulls that do come out get bred to the carrier cows. So it will take time, but club calf breeders are in the business to produce steers that win, not steers that are clean. Even with the market heifer deal, to many people decide to keep them as cows once they get through showing them.

As far as EPD’s, hard to get EPD’s off of a 3 way cross, oh some might be registered Chi, but what is that 8%, for the most part they are shooting for steers, they do not get registered. There are several Sim bulls out there that to make good replacements they are clean, there are also some good Maines but you have to watch PHA. There have been some good clubby bred bulls who have produced great cows, Who made Who, a clean bull has done well.

Most bulls have the their carrier status posted, when using clubby genetics for replacements the information for defects is there as long as one does their homework.

Most clubby bred bulls are terminal, a few turn out to produce good replacements, for the most part poor milking, small pelvis, is what you are getting from the HeatWave cattle, not a very good recipe for replacements.
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Re: Can anyone tell me about these bulls?

Postby Beef Man » Wed Jan 22, 2014 5:15 pm

I've got a question. One of my grandsons has some pretty decent yearling heifers and wants to AI a few to club calf and try to market them as show steers.He is 13 years old and this is his own idea. I was quite impressed with his plan and thought it whould give him a nice boost on his way to maybe learn something different and on his own. But I surely would like to know more about these genetic problems and could he use the heifers anyway in a future breeding program??What is TH orTpha?? I as a 14 year old learned all about dwarfism in a old hard knocks school and it wiped me out of the breeding cattle business in 1 year. Tough lesson learned and remember it well. So thought I could ask a question and get a headstart on some problems before a wreck happen's. Thank You--
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Re: Can anyone tell me about these bulls?

Postby DLD » Wed Jan 22, 2014 5:22 pm

Oak Creek, I'm not trying to be difficult here - I truly want to know... Can you give us a link or tell us where to find that information promoting clubbie bulls for producing commercial replacements? I'd love to know which particular bulls and why. I'm as much about the showring as anybody, but I'll be the first to say that generally speaking the genetics behind a winning show steer and a good commercial female are miles apart. Now I realize that club calf semen is being sold to anybody that wants it, but I have to believe that there are very few commercial producers that are savvy enough to use AI that aren't researching the genetics they're using. I also realize that when club calf producers can sell calves straight off the cow for five figures, that a whole lot of people want a piece of that action, and many of them aren't taking the time to make wise breeding decisions - I'm not pretending that's a good thing, but it's not an accident. It's that producers fault, period - not the fault of the bull he bred to or the guy that sold him the semen.

VCC, I think the PHA deal is fading away much faster than TH. There aren't many new PHA carrier bulls being marketed for semen sales. About the only old PHA carrier still popular is Irish Whiskey, but there are plenty of clean sons out there to use.

I agree, everyone's entitled to their opinion, and I'm not knocking anybody for theirs. Just sharing mine too.
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Re: Can anyone tell me about these bulls?

Postby DLD » Wed Jan 22, 2014 6:04 pm

Beef Man wrote:I've got a question. One of my grandsons has some pretty decent yearling heifers and wants to AI a few to club calf and try to market them as show steers.He is 13 years old and this is his own idea. I was quite impressed with his plan and thought it whould give him a nice boost on his way to maybe learn something different and on his own. But I surely would like to know more about these genetic problems and could he use the heifers anyway in a future breeding program??What is TH orTpha?? I as a 14 year old learned all about dwarfism in a old hard knocks school and it wiped me out of the breeding cattle business in 1 year. Tough lesson learned and remember it well. So thought I could ask a question and get a headstart on some problems before a wreck happen's. Thank You--


My fifty cent crash course. Maybe oversimplified, but it covers most of what you need to know.

TH results in malformation of the hind legs - can be slight or extreme. TH affected calves also often are born with hernias, and/or a hole in the top of their head. Affected calves are usually stillborn. It traces back to a particular line of imported Shorthorns. Before that, though it can't be directly traced to there, the only known recorded incidents of what seems to be the same thing occurred in the Galloway breed. It's a simply inherited genetic defect - statistically, mating 2 carriers will result in 50% carriers, 25% clean and 25% affected offspring. Mating 1 carrier with 1 clean parent will result in 50% carrier and 50% clean offspring.

PHA is where the fetus' lungs don't develop properly. It results in the calf taking on fluid, and if they're carried full term, it can result in huge, deformed calves (always stillborn) that often have to come out in pieces or by C-section. It can result in a cow not surviving, and often the ones that do won't breed back. Inheritance is the same as with TH. It's origins are kind of fuzzy - it can be traced back to a few old Maine Anjou lines, but there seems to be a dead end in connecting them to each other and an original source.

TH is a deletion in the gene sequence that's involved in forming the hind leg, and seems to be associated with big bone, straight legs, and maybe lots of hair. Thus, it's been hard to get away from in the club calf deal.

TH and PHA carrier status is available on most AI sires - if you don't see it, ask. There are many good, clean bulls available.

I may sound like carrier's just don't matter to me, but really, that's not the case. I do have a few carrier females, bred back before we knew about these defects. They're too valuable to throw away, but I mate them clean. Always. I won't own a carrier bull. I do breed a few known clean cows to carrier bulls AI. All the bull calves get cut, most females get sent to a feedlot. If we want to keep one, we test her, and breed accordingly. We have not had an affected calf with either TH or PHA since we knew what they were and only 2 before that.

My advice for someone just starting out would be to keep it clean. Lot's of people are going to tell you you'll never raise a great one that way, but you can raise some good ones, and sleep better at night.
Last edited by DLD on Wed Jan 22, 2014 6:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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OakCreekRanch
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Re: Can anyone tell me about these bulls?

Postby OakCreekRanch » Wed Jan 22, 2014 6:10 pm

VCC wrote:Oak Creek, once a clean bull comes out that produces consistent winners you will see them go away from the carriers, until then I doubt anyone will stop using them. Most clean bulls that do come out get bred to the carrier cows. So it will take time, but club calf breeders are in the business to produce steers that win, not steers that are clean. Even with the market heifer deal, to many people decide to keep them as cows once they get through showing them.

As far as EPD’s, hard to get EPD’s off of a 3 way cross, oh some might be registered Chi, but what is that 8%, for the most part they are shooting for steers, they do not get registered. There are several Sim bulls out there that to make good replacements they are clean, there are also some good Maines but you have to watch PHA. There have been some good clubby bred bulls who have produced great cows, Who made Who, a clean bull has done well.

Most bulls have the their carrier status posted, when using clubby genetics for replacements the information for defects is there as long as one does their homework.

Most clubby bred bulls are terminal, a few turn out to produce good replacements, for the most part poor milking, small pelvis, is what you are getting from the HeatWave cattle, not a very good recipe for replacements.
I do agree with almost everything you just said but it doesn't change the fact that too many people are selling the females to others after the showing season is over. Often the kids have to selling their animals before they goes to the college or trying a new project. Recently my bud just brought a black MainTainer heifer from a guy and my bud has some retired show cows in his commercial herd so I have some concerns about buying replacements from my bud.

I have to disagree with you on the carrier status posted on the beef sire catalogs because I do not see any carrier status on some bull catalogs, especially Genex Cooperative, Inc. I just got in the mail. And it's difficult to track down a specific bull to see if he is a carrier or not when do a search on Google but I'm no computer genius. :help:

If they wanted a show steer, why didn't they just selling sexed semen to the folks? I don't know if I want these detects in my herd, nor do I wants to have an extra chore by testing every heifers for the detects. But I agree with you that they will always using these dirty bulls because money speaks. Perhaps one day when the dirty club calf fad become a past thing or at least more awareness about these defects.
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Re: Can anyone tell me about these bulls?

Postby VCC » Thu Jan 23, 2014 11:44 am

Well they only list 2 club calf bulls on the Genex site, one is a 98 model "Swoosh", and the other "Super Man" out of Strictly Business and Who Made Who, he should be clean by lineage, probably why they are not listed as carriers.

As long as you are not breeding to Club Calf, Show type Shorthorn, or retaining bulls out of the suspect cows, I cannot see how you are going to run into a problem. Without 2 carriers you will never have a calf with a defect. If you are breeding, Angus, Hereford, Charolais, Simmental, or eared bulls you are not at risk of TH or PHA.

I have a 5 year old cow that is out of a cow who was out of a carrier bull (PHA) I just make sure I breed her to PHA free bulls, steers are no big deal, and I still have the only heifer she has thrown, I am not worried about defects because I watch who I breed her to, and will do the same with the heifer. I have not had her tested; if I were to sell a heifer out of her or her daughter then I would have it tested prior to selling it.
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Re: Can anyone tell me about these bulls?

Postby Till-Hill » Thu Jan 23, 2014 11:51 am

OakCreekRanch wrote:
VCC wrote:Oak Creek, once a clean bull comes out that produces consistent winners you will see them go away from the carriers, until then I doubt anyone will stop using them. Most clean bulls that do come out get bred to the carrier cows. So it will take time, but club calf breeders are in the business to produce steers that win, not steers that are clean. Even with the market heifer deal, to many people decide to keep them as cows once they get through showing them.

As far as EPD’s, hard to get EPD’s off of a 3 way cross, oh some might be registered Chi, but what is that 8%, for the most part they are shooting for steers, they do not get registered. There are several Sim bulls out there that to make good replacements they are clean, there are also some good Maines but you have to watch PHA. There have been some good clubby bred bulls who have produced great cows, Who made Who, a clean bull has done well.

Most bulls have the their carrier status posted, when using clubby genetics for replacements the information for defects is there as long as one does their homework.

Most clubby bred bulls are terminal, a few turn out to produce good replacements, for the most part poor milking, small pelvis, is what you are getting from the HeatWave cattle, not a very good recipe for replacements.
I do agree with almost everything you just said but it doesn't change the fact that too many people are selling the females to others after the showing season is over. Often the kids have to selling their animals before they goes to the college or trying a new project. Recently my bud just brought a black MainTainer heifer from a guy and my bud has some retired show cows in his commercial herd so I have some concerns about buying replacements from my bud.

I have to disagree with you on the carrier status posted on the beef sire catalogs because I do not see any carrier status on some bull catalogs, especially Genex Cooperative, Inc. I just got in the mail. And it's difficult to track down a specific bull to see if he is a carrier or not when do a search on Google but I'm no computer genius. :help:

If they wanted a show steer, why didn't they just selling sexed semen to the folks? I don't know if I want these detects in my herd, nor do I wants to have an extra chore by testing every heifers for the detects. But I agree with you that they will always using these dirty bulls because money speaks. Perhaps one day when the dirty club calf fad become a past thing or at least more awareness about these defects.

Look loser at club calf bulls in the back of the book, mine and my buddies both has TH and PHA status listed for them but on website go to added attractions to find the clubby bulls........
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OakCreekRanch
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Re: Can anyone tell me about these bulls?

Postby OakCreekRanch » Thu Jan 23, 2014 12:11 pm

I am not too worried about what you do with your animals. My biggest concern is spreading the defects around via carrier animals and the defects might ended up in someone's cattle herd unknowingly. Who knows we might will see these defects showing up in the other breeds or even in commercial herds someday. Because the club calf industry choose to not clean up their messes as long as they are making money off these carrier animals. There will be always irresponsible breeders and sellers to ruin the beef industry for the folks like us. I'm sure some of you are nice folks but this is really grinds my gears!
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Re: Can anyone tell me about these bulls?

Postby OakCreekRanch » Thu Jan 23, 2014 12:17 pm

So I'm the loser? Well I better stop posting in this thread as if I have offended some folks here for my concerns and entitling my opinions. Have a nice afternoon! :tiphat:
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