Soil Samples

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Banjo
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Re: Soil Samples

Postby Banjo » Mon Sep 18, 2017 5:45 pm

herofan wrote:It appears that most here have a positive view of soil samples. I wonder why the people in my area dont experience positive results?


You need good soil moisture and a certain amount of organic matter to have positive results from chemical fertilizer.
Forty years ago , I don't ever remember a poor crop of anything...hay, corn, tobacco it was always good regardless if it rained a little or a lot. Fertilize was in its infancy....lots of organic matter and humus in the soil.

Now much of the humus is gone, fertilize accelerates biological activity....it causes oxidation in the soil. Look at a bag of Ammonia Nitrate it will say "oxidizer" that why things rust real fast that have fertilize left in them.

So now I think different soils are going to respond differently depending on the inherent natural quality of the soil and the abuse its had. soils that haven't had any fertilize on them in years will probably respond better than soils that get it every year.
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Re: Soil Samples

Postby 1982vett » Mon Sep 18, 2017 7:11 pm

herofan wrote:It appears that most here have a positive view of soil samples. I wonder why the people in my area dont experience positive results?

Could be the ground isn't suited to what the are trying to achieve...
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Re: Soil Samples

Postby True Grit Farms » Mon Sep 18, 2017 7:34 pm

Banjo wrote:
herofan wrote:It appears that most here have a positive view of soil samples. I wonder why the people in my area dont experience positive results?


You need good soil moisture and a certain amount of organic matter to have positive results from chemical fertilizer.
Forty years ago , I don't ever remember a poor crop of anything...hay, corn, tobacco it was always good regardless if it rained a little or a lot. Fertilize was in its infancy....lots of organic matter and humus in the soil.


Now much of the humus is gone, fertilize accelerates biological activity....it causes oxidation in the soil. Look at a bag of Ammonia Nitrate it will say "oxidizer" that why things rust real fast that have fertilize left in them.

So now I think different soils are going to respond differently depending on the inherent natural quality of the soil and the abuse its had. soils that haven't had any fertilize on them in years will probably respond better than soils that get it every year.


You do realize that the average corn crop per acre in 1977 was less than 60 bu to the acre. In 2015 the adverage corn crop was almost 170 bu to the acre. Soybeans follow the same track as corn.
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Re: Soil Samples

Postby wbvs58 » Mon Sep 18, 2017 7:59 pm

In Australia most of our soils are very phosphorous deficient so in the more intensive areas most grazing properties will have an annual programme of applying what we call Super Phosphate (acid treated rock phosphate to give more soluble P&S). We get a response from the P&S but the rational is to feed the legumes which in turn produce the N for the grass growth.

I do do the occaisional soil test to see how things are going, mostly where I'm growing annual forages but at $150 a hit I do it sparingly.

I feel that it is very hard to get a good representative sample of soil from a paddock. Even taking sample from several different spots and mixing it together is not good as it only gives an average and some areas probably require a lot different treatment to others. Also some areas may have had a heavy dose of fertiliser land there last time it was spread and the effects linger on thereby not being a true representation of the paddock. This may explain why some people are distrusting of soil tests.

Ken
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Re: Soil Samples

Postby ga.prime » Mon Sep 18, 2017 8:37 pm

herofan wrote:I know that if a question is ever asked here concerning how to improve a hay field, most people will say, "get a soil sample." With that, I assume that soil samples work for people here. Is that correct?

With that, I've been talking with some people locally, and I can't find anyone that speaks that highly of soil samples, because they say they never see any considerable improvement.

We have a local guy who is a big time farmer worth a couple of million, and I asked his hired hand if he did soil samples, and his reply was, "heck no. He puts triple 19 out every year and puts lime out about every 4 or 5 years."

Apparently, he did samples in years gone by and didn't see any difference.

I won't go into all the different stories of what people told me, but the general idea is that they take a sample, spend a fortune doing what it recommends, and there isn't a dimes worth of difference.

One guy told me that he bought some land several years ago that hadn't been cared for in quite some time. He said he put triple 19 on for a couple of years and saw gradual improvement. He decided to get a soil sample and go with that. He said he did that for three years and said his fields were actually worse than when he was just putting triple 19 so he went back to that and it's better.

Since a lot of people here recommend soil samples, I assume this is not the experience you have.

You have talked to everyone in the world and know everything. So, why are you on here stirring up shyt?
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Re: Soil Samples

Postby kenny thomas » Mon Sep 18, 2017 8:46 pm

wbvs58 wrote:In Australia most of our soils are very phosphorous deficient so in the more intensive areas most grazing properties will have an annual programme of applying what we call Super Phosphate (acid treated rock phosphate to give more soluble P&S). We get a response from the P&S but the rational is to feed the legumes which in turn produce the N for the grass growth.

I do do the occaisional soil test to see how things are going, mostly where I'm growing annual forages but at $150 a hit I do it sparingly.

I feel that it is very hard to get a good representative sample of soil from a paddock. Even taking sample from several different spots and mixing it together is not good as it only gives an average and some areas probably require a lot different treatment to others. Also some areas may have had a heavy dose of fertiliser land there last time it was spread and the effects linger on thereby not being a true representation of the paddock. This may explain why some people are distrusting of soil tests.

Ken

Kenny, here in Virginia the soil test is free. I mail it in on Monday and by Friday I have the results in an email.
Good point on it being an average. The more samples I take the closer I get to being correct. I can't take samples from 100 acres and get the proper results. I usually limit my area to 10-20 acres.,if I send several samples and they are all close in the results I try to match the average of those.
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Re: Soil Samples

Postby herofan » Mon Sep 18, 2017 9:45 pm

wbvs58 wrote:I feel that it is very hard to get a good representative sample of soil from a paddock. Even taking sample from several different spots and mixing it together is not good as it only gives an average and some areas probably require a lot different treatment to others. Also some areas may have had a heavy dose of fertiliser land there last time it was spread and the effects linger on thereby not being a true representation of the paddock. This may explain why some people are distrusting of soil tests.

Ken


That makes sense.
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Re: Soil Samples

Postby Stocker Steve » Mon Sep 18, 2017 9:57 pm

wbvs58 wrote:I feel that it is very hard to get a good representative sample of soil from a paddock. Even taking sample from several different spots and mixing it together is not good as it only gives an average and some areas probably require a lot different treatment to others.


Poor sampling. Best practice is to grid test 2.5 acre blocks.
Poor timing. Available mineral varies with biological activity at that time.
Poor moisture level. Nothing biological works w/o water.
Poor recommendations. Chemical sellers often misprescribe using 60 year old standards and test methods.
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Re: Soil Samples

Postby Banjo » Mon Sep 18, 2017 10:43 pm

True Grit Farms wrote:
You do realize that the average corn crop per acre in 1977 was less than 60 bu to the acre. In 2015 the adverage corn crop was almost 170 bu to the acre. Soybeans follow the same track as corn.



Actually it was around a 100 bushels to the acre, at least in this area. I remember my Dad planting 40 acres in corn that had never been in corn before, it had been in fescue for years....don't know the yield, because we cut it for silage, but it was the best piece of corn I had ever seen before or since...even the neighbors commented on how good it was.
Dad continued to put that field in silage corn but it never came close to being as good as it was the first time it was planted.
Back then everybody plowed their corn ground and we were destroying our organic matter thru tillage and we didn't even know it.
Plowing up a piece of ground isn't all bad....but you can't do it year after year after year. Its got to go back into grass every 2 or 3 years...for 2 or 3 years. But who does that anymore?
Ask the tobacco farmers around here how hard it is to grow tobacco nowadays...putting it in the same field year after year for years. Maybe the depletion of the humus and lack of rotation back into grass is the reason for all the diseases like blackshank, and bluemold, and all kinds of insects attacking it from start to finish.

And yes, corn has come along way. here they grow about 200 bu/ac. If I paid $300 or more for a bag of seed corn it better yield a whole lot. I highly doubt though that that 200 bu/ac bred to grow on pure chemicals is of the same quality that 100 bu corn was 40 years ago. Someone posted the other day about corn that had a 60lb test weight and 6% protein. looks like the protein would go up with the test weight.
Open pollinated corn grown in good soil and rotated will be 12%-13% protein.
I know that because I grew some one year and had it tested and it was 13%. Most likely the vitamin/mineral content was up there too, even though I didn't test that aspect.
But everything is about quantity these days....quality is a thing of the past.
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Re: Soil Samples

Postby Texasmark » Tue Sep 19, 2017 5:11 am

herofan wrote:It appears that most here have a positive view of soil samples. I wonder why the people in my area dont experience positive results?


Maybe it has to do with the: "Obviously your exacting soil/weather conditions/application ability and all the variables can and will modify the results.". Too much of this.
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Re: Soil Samples

Postby ddd75 » Tue Sep 19, 2017 5:35 am

people in ky and 'triple 19'

that what everyone throws down. You're wasting your money by not soil testing.

PH is an important factor that you need to know. Your other basic elements N P K.. you might have massive amounts of potash, so why waste money by putting on 'triple 19'

My very first rule is never 'listen to the neighbors'
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Re: Soil Samples

Postby herofan » Tue Sep 19, 2017 2:50 pm

ddd75 wrote:people in ky and 'triple 19'

that what everyone throws down. You're wasting your money by not soil testing.

PH is an important factor that you need to know. Your other basic elements N P K.. you might have massive amounts of potash, so why waste money by putting on 'triple 19'

My very first rule is never 'listen to the neighbors'


But the point of my post was that people around here seem to have better luck with triple 19 than the soil test recommendations.
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Re: Soil Samples

Postby kenny thomas » Tue Sep 19, 2017 3:01 pm

herofan wrote:
ddd75 wrote:people in ky and 'triple 19'

that what everyone throws down. You're wasting your money by not soil testing.

PH is an important factor that you need to know. Your other basic elements N P K.. you might have massive amounts of potash, so why waste money by putting on 'triple 19'

My very first rule is never 'listen to the neighbors'


But the point of my post was that people around here seem to have better luck with triple 19 than the soil test recommendations.

One thing to try, If you have a 20 acre field that is very consistent in slope, aspect, ground cover, and soil type try doing half of it by the soil test and the other half just spreading triple 19. Measure the results over a 3-5 year period and really see the difference.
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Re: Soil Samples

Postby ddd75 » Tue Sep 19, 2017 6:37 pm

herofan wrote:
ddd75 wrote:people in ky and 'triple 19'

that what everyone throws down. You're wasting your money by not soil testing.

PH is an important factor that you need to know. Your other basic elements N P K.. you might have massive amounts of potash, so why waste money by putting on 'triple 19'

My very first rule is never 'listen to the neighbors'


But the point of my post was that people around here seem to have better luck with triple 19 than the soil test recommendations.



well thats not how it works. I know exactly what they say, I hear the same thing.

They also roll 1/2 the hay I do or less, on the same ground.
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Re: Soil Samples

Postby snoopdog » Tue Sep 19, 2017 7:29 pm

We soil test , not doing so is a waste of money imo. I make it a point, to do what "the neighbors " tell me I can't . Most people that sit at the dead pecker tables in the coffee shops are F.O.S., Not all , but most .
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