Just thought someone might find this interesting

Discuss grasses and how to grow and harvest them.
User avatar
Jogeephus
Mentor
Mentor
Posts: 23325
Joined: Mon Jul 17, 2006 9:44 pm
Location: South Georgia

Re: Just thought someone might find this interesting

Postby Jogeephus » Thu Oct 05, 2017 2:44 pm

chevytaHOE5674 wrote:
Jogeephus wrote:"the woods aren't good for cattle but the cattle are good for the woods". There is a lot of truth in this


As a schooled forester I will say that all depends on the soil type and tree species growing. Well drained ground with appropriate species (IE sandy soils with generally pine) that is true, lesser drained soils typically with more hardwood species it is the opposite of the truth.

I have a lot of woods fenced for pasture and all of it is our typical clay to clay/loam soil with hardwood species growing (maple, birch, ash, oak, aspen, etc). Within 3 years of fencing in the woods and turning cattle loose I have crown die back in 60% of the trees and mortality in 10%, this can be attributed to the compaction and root disturbance. Go 15 feet onto the neighbors land which sits untouched and there is no meaningful crown die back.


True. As with anything else there is no one size fits all management prescription. I live in the coastal plain which is supposed to be pine with a grass understory. When Bartram traveled through this area he noted that one could ride seven horses abreast through the forests and he noted it had a grass understory. Here is a picture of some land that has been managed using a multiple use approach and it is in a similar state to which Bartram described. Plenty of timber production, plenty of wildlife and ample food for cattle.

Image
0 x
Experience - the ability to instantly recognize a mistake when you make it again.

chevytaHOE5674
Trail Boss
Trail Boss
Posts: 387
Joined: Tue Dec 11, 2012 2:40 pm
Location: Western UP, Mi

Re: Just thought someone might find this interesting

Postby chevytaHOE5674 » Thu Oct 05, 2017 2:59 pm

There is some sand soil and pine around here but it is generally so well drained that the only thing that grows in the understory is bracken fern and maybe a few grasses but it is generally considered a "wasteland" as far as diversity goes. Much of the forested land in the north is deciduous hardwoods which thrive in the wetter clay and loam soils which suffer from major compaction issues.

If I was managing my land for timber quality and quantity UP here there is no way I would graze cattle in it. Since I live 1/4 of a mile from lake superior and our climate is very harsh, and soils extra wet most of the valuable hardwoods (maple, oak, birch) only grow in poor form it doesn't bother me to let the cattle clear out the trees for me.
0 x

User avatar
Jogeephus
Mentor
Mentor
Posts: 23325
Joined: Mon Jul 17, 2006 9:44 pm
Location: South Georgia

Re: Just thought someone might find this interesting

Postby Jogeephus » Thu Oct 05, 2017 3:49 pm

Yeah, you are in a totally different forest than I am. I surely wouldn't want cattle stomping the shallow roots of white ash and infecting them with heart rot.

The USDA is spending millions of dollars in their attempts to promote wiregrass longleaf forests. Millions have been spent on CRP in planting longleaf on cropland and once planted participants are told to plant wiregrass and other native grasses but most of these grass plantings fail and have to be redone over and over at a huge cost to the taxpayer. One of the most recent debacles was when they brought in a bunch of partridge pea from Texas which was infected by some sort of pathogen that killed thousands of acres of newly planted longleaf. Also this introduction grew nearly six foot tall and shaded out the longleaf seedlings causing them to die from brown spot needle blight. If this wasn't enough the trees then were burnt to a crisp when the mandatory burn was used because this introduction had an oily substance and would burn so fast gasoline wouldn't have made it burn hotter.

This is a good example of how a one size fits all prescription by people sitting behind desks is ludicrous.

A lot of this is an art coupled with common sense and its the little things that make a huge difference. Little things like pH. Anyone who has spent time in the flatwoods knows wiregrass, big bluestem and to some extent switchgrass usually has companion bushes like blueberry and huckleberry both of which require acidic soils so you would think it would be easy enough to connect the dots and realize you will not be successful planting wiregrass right behind peanuts and cotton just as you are not going to be successful planting blueberries in a field behind cotton.

In spite of the USDA's desire to throw tax dollars at it some people are learning there is merit to the old ways and one can use cattle to reclaim this ecosystem while even making a few dollars in the process. Not to mention the benefits to hunting - especially quail. In that respect, I believe cattle are good for the environment. In most of the flatwoods the desirable grasses are already there and need only a chance to grow free from the competition of the galberry and fetterbush. A couple good fires followed by the introduction of cattle to keeps things beat down and some patience and you have just restored an ecosystem and made a few dollars doing it.

Surely its not some get rich quick scheme and will require some patience and forethought but at the end of the day the benefits sure seem to outweigh the costs in my view.
1 x
Experience - the ability to instantly recognize a mistake when you make it again.

Turkeybird
Cowhand
Cowhand
Posts: 137
Joined: Mon Jan 23, 2017 8:56 pm

Re: Just thought someone might find this interesting

Postby Turkeybird » Thu Oct 05, 2017 4:21 pm

chevytaHOE5674 wrote:
Jogeephus wrote:"the woods aren't good for cattle but the cattle are good for the woods". There is a lot of truth in this


As a schooled forester I will say that all depends on the soil type and tree species growing. Well drained ground with appropriate species (IE sandy soils with generally pine) that is true, lesser drained soils typically with more hardwood species it is the opposite of the truth.

I have a lot of woods fenced for pasture and all of it is our typical clay to clay/loam soil with hardwood species growing (maple, birch, ash, oak, aspen, etc). Within 3 years of fencing in the woods and turning cattle loose I have crown die back in 60% of the trees and mortality in 10%, this can be attributed to the compaction and root disturbance. Go 15 feet onto the neighbors land which sits untouched and there is no meaningful crown die back.

That's why you run a low stocking rate
0 x

callmefence
GURU
GURU
Posts: 3150
Joined: Mon Mar 07, 2016 10:36 pm
Location: Fencemans place...central Texas

Re: Just thought someone might find this interesting

Postby callmefence » Thu Oct 05, 2017 4:55 pm

So just fence in some country. Turn out some cattle and let em eat what grows there. Don't put to many or they'll run outta stuff to eat... revolutionary..who would of ever thunk it
0 x
The more I work the luckier I get...TexasBred


You can all go to he// . I'll go to Texas.
David Crockett

chevytaHOE5674
Trail Boss
Trail Boss
Posts: 387
Joined: Tue Dec 11, 2012 2:40 pm
Location: Western UP, Mi

Re: Just thought someone might find this interesting

Postby chevytaHOE5674 » Thu Oct 05, 2017 5:05 pm

Turkeybird wrote:That's why you run a low stocking rate


In some soils even a low stocking rate will do damage. Cattle being heard animals they congregate in one place which will do plenty of damage. Say you have 10 animals on 100 acres that doesn't mean that they are all evenly spaced, it often means that all 10 animals are standing around a single point occupying 100sqft causing extensive root damage if it happens to be near a tree. For instance in the spring/early summer UP here when the sap is running the cows will congregate around a single tree that has a wound on it to lick the dripping sugary sap.
0 x

User avatar
Jogeephus
Mentor
Mentor
Posts: 23325
Joined: Mon Jul 17, 2006 9:44 pm
Location: South Georgia

Re: Just thought someone might find this interesting

Postby Jogeephus » Thu Oct 05, 2017 5:12 pm

I don't think they'd find pine sap to tasty. :lol2: Only problem I've seen was a logger left a battery in the woods and the cows treated this like a salt lick and several cows were killed before the problem was identified.
0 x
Experience - the ability to instantly recognize a mistake when you make it again.

User avatar
HDRider
GURU
GURU
Posts: 4132
Joined: Mon Jul 25, 2011 9:25 am
Location: NE Arkansas

Re: Just thought someone might find this interesting

Postby HDRider » Thu Oct 05, 2017 6:00 pm

Jogeephus wrote:
chevytaHOE5674 wrote:
Jogeephus wrote:"the woods aren't good for cattle but the cattle are good for the woods". There is a lot of truth in this


As a schooled forester I will say that all depends on the soil type and tree species growing. Well drained ground with appropriate species (IE sandy soils with generally pine) that is true, lesser drained soils typically with more hardwood species it is the opposite of the truth.

I have a lot of woods fenced for pasture and all of it is our typical clay to clay/loam soil with hardwood species growing (maple, birch, ash, oak, aspen, etc). Within 3 years of fencing in the woods and turning cattle loose I have crown die back in 60% of the trees and mortality in 10%, this can be attributed to the compaction and root disturbance. Go 15 feet onto the neighbors land which sits untouched and there is no meaningful crown die back.


True. As with anything else there is no one size fits all management prescription. I live in the coastal plain which is supposed to be pine with a grass understory. When Bartram traveled through this area he noted that one could ride seven horses abreast through the forests and he noted it had a grass understory. Here is a picture of some land that has been managed using a multiple use approach and it is in a similar state to which Bartram described. Plenty of timber production, plenty of wildlife and ample food for cattle.

Image

I like that.
1 x
bball wrote: "The juice wasn't worth the squeeze."
Dun said, "You gotta be flexible. Do whatever you have to do for the best results within your limitations."

User avatar
Supa Dexta
GURU
GURU
Posts: 1738
Joined: Mon Dec 22, 2014 6:33 am
Location: Eastern Canada

Re: Just thought someone might find this interesting

Postby Supa Dexta » Thu Oct 05, 2017 8:15 pm

Enjoyed the woods in georgia while I was there, always thought it would make for neat hunting being able to see that far in. Can't see 30ft here.
0 x

User avatar
kenny thomas
GURU
GURU
Posts: 7035
Joined: Sun Nov 16, 2008 7:16 pm
Location: SW tip of Virginia

Re: Just thought someone might find this interesting

Postby kenny thomas » Thu Oct 05, 2017 8:25 pm

Jogee, the colleges are spending lots of mone year on these studies also. They are calling it Silva pasture. They even done some tests saying honey locust was good for producing high protein seeds for sheep. They almost got ran out of some meetings for mentioning it.
0 x
My thoughts only, don't bet the farm on them. KT

Some people know people, who know people, who aren't very nice people and you could get a visit from them someday. So be good people.

User avatar
Jogeephus
Mentor
Mentor
Posts: 23325
Joined: Mon Jul 17, 2006 9:44 pm
Location: South Georgia

Re: Just thought someone might find this interesting

Postby Jogeephus » Fri Oct 06, 2017 7:04 am

kenny thomas wrote:Jogee, the colleges are spending lots of mone year on these studies also. They are calling it Silva pasture. They even done some tests saying honey locust was good for producing high protein seeds for sheep. They almost got ran out of some meetings for mentioning it.


:lol: :lol: Give em grant money and I'm sure they'd be happy to re-invent the wheel. Publish or perish is the game I'm told.

Incidentally, I spent 8 hours last week in a mandatory class where one of the researchers discussed a study he had done that dealt with the differences in the rate of fire spread over rocky ground versus ground that had no rocks. I'd share his conclusion but I think its to valuable to share unless you pay me some money. After all I spent 8 hours of my life learning this secret and this is 8 hours of my life I will never get back so surely my time is worth something. However, being I will offer you a hint - rocks don't burn. :lol2:
0 x
Experience - the ability to instantly recognize a mistake when you make it again.

cowgirl8
GURU
GURU
Posts: 4057
Joined: Wed Mar 12, 2014 5:37 am
Location: NE Texas

Re: Just thought someone might find this interesting

Postby cowgirl8 » Fri Oct 06, 2017 8:01 am

We occasionally graze our pines, but the only grazing is on fire lanes. Most of our pine forest are waterless. Sometimes there are low spots that have water, but as far as locking cows up in them we cant.... We don't let them in during calving season though or when they have calves. Aint nobody got time for that...lol
0 x
For those who understand, need no explanation, ....for those who don't, none will do

callmefence
GURU
GURU
Posts: 3150
Joined: Mon Mar 07, 2016 10:36 pm
Location: Fencemans place...central Texas

Re: Just thought someone might find this interesting

Postby callmefence » Fri Oct 06, 2017 9:48 am

Jogeephus wrote:
kenny thomas wrote:Jogee, the colleges are spending lots of mone year on these studies also. They are calling it Silva pasture. They even done some tests saying honey locust was good for producing high protein seeds for sheep. They almost got ran out of some meetings for mentioning it.


:lol: :lol: Give em grant money and I'm sure they'd be happy to re-invent the wheel. Publish or perish is the game I'm told.

Incidentally, I spent 8 hours last week in a mandatory class where one of the researchers discussed a study he had done that dealt with the differences in the rate of fire spread over rocky ground versus ground that had no rocks. I'd share his conclusion but I think its to valuable to share unless you pay me some money. After all I spent 8 hours of my life learning this secret and this is 8 hours of my life I will never get back so surely my time is worth something. However, being I will offer you a hint - rocks don't burn. :lol2:


Please believe me. I'm not trying to target you today. Just coincidence I reckon. But I would sure be curious to hear bout that.
In many instances fire will burn much more rapidly across rocky ground.
0 x
The more I work the luckier I get...TexasBred


You can all go to he// . I'll go to Texas.
David Crockett

User avatar
Jogeephus
Mentor
Mentor
Posts: 23325
Joined: Mon Jul 17, 2006 9:44 pm
Location: South Georgia

Re: Just thought someone might find this interesting

Postby Jogeephus » Fri Oct 06, 2017 1:36 pm

callmefence wrote: Please believe me. I'm not trying to target you today. Just coincidence I reckon. But I would sure be curious to hear bout that.
In many instances fire will burn much more rapidly across rocky ground.


Well the title in of my thread does state that someone might find it interesting. Its really not that complicated but here plants don't grow on rocks so without plant growth there is no fuel. With no fuel there is no fire. I guess things are different in Texas.
0 x
Experience - the ability to instantly recognize a mistake when you make it again.

callmefence
GURU
GURU
Posts: 3150
Joined: Mon Mar 07, 2016 10:36 pm
Location: Fencemans place...central Texas

Re: Just thought someone might find this interesting

Postby callmefence » Fri Oct 06, 2017 2:57 pm

Jogeephus wrote:
callmefence wrote: Please believe me. I'm not trying to target you today. Just coincidence I reckon. But I would sure be curious to hear bout that.
In many instances fire will burn much more rapidly across rocky ground.


Well the title in of my thread does state that someone might find it interesting. Its really not that complicated but here plants don't grow on rocks so without plant growth there is no fuel. With no fuel there is no fire. I guess things are different in Texas.


No it's not complicated. In shallow rocky soil moisture is lost quicker in hot weather. You can actually see where bedrock nears the surface by observing the grass. Especially in hot weather.
And to say vegetation doesn't grow in rocky terrain is :bs: and I can prove it.
Anyway the drier vegetation will burn much faster than denser vegetation with more moisture. Take a look at areas prone to frequent wildfire. You will invariably find shallow rocky soil.

I found your previous post quite condensing. Maybe it was just me. I know your convinced your the all knowing. So no biggie.
I will admit I didn't take a 8 hour class.
No going to either... don't have to... :mrgreen:
0 x
The more I work the luckier I get...TexasBred


You can all go to he// . I'll go to Texas.
David Crockett


Return to “Grasses, Pastures and Hay”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 4 guests