I could use some advice about calves/cattle

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Bright Raven
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Re: I could use some advice about calves/cattle

Postby Bright Raven » Tue Jan 23, 2018 6:59 pm

CabinetMaker wrote:I do have a lawyer. Our suit is bigger than just the cannon nonsense. I have been told, (by lawyers today,) since the dead calf, (and the rest of it,) is a civil case, the defendants word is considered all the evidence needed. It's not a criminal case...yet.
It seems since they are more people than just me, when they all testify that the calf was killed by a coyote, then that's what killed it.
Yes, it's costing us more to pursue this dead calf in court, but it leads to the rest of our harassment case.
We are not in small claims court, we are going for a jury trial. (For eight counts of harassment, the cannon being one small part.)
They claim now that, 'We started it.' Whatever, 'It,' is. I'm an adult, not an eight year old, so we go to court.
I asked my attorney about pursuing a fraud case. He said I cannot do that until after the trial.


In civil jury trials, it does not take a unanimous jury. If there are 12 jurors, you need a majority of 9 out of 12 on your harassment charges.

Based on this thread, justice will be served in the jury deciding in your favor but anything can and does happen with jury decisions. Good luck.
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Re: I could use some advice about calves/cattle

Postby Son of Butch » Tue Jan 23, 2018 8:35 pm

CabinetMaker wrote:What questions would you ask about this calf, if you were in my shoes?

Who is their veterinarian?
Have attorney question them and vet separately, how many visits per year, why, what problems, herd protocols?
Was the calf autopsied by the vet?
What were the results?
What % of the many other calves had autopsies by the vet?
results? Never losing one to disease is unheard of in livestock production.

Cannons don't scare off scours, clostridial or respiratory diseases.
Diseases are the number one threat to successful livestock operations.
Go after their health care practices.
What % have they lost to disease?
Were they autopsied?
What vaccines have been given to all of the animals on the farm?
Did they all receive their booster shots?
Which vaccines were given to the mothers to transfer immunity to their calves?
Were they properly administered by a vet or under vet supervision?
Can they document purchases for all the vaccines claimed?

Vaccines, medications and health care is a business expense, they can either prove all health care expenses
from tax records or it never happened.
Can an attorney subpoena business tax records... i don't know, but may help establish calf value and scare 'em.
Excess health care expenses can be used to show they have many problems other than coyotes.
Failure to prove health care expenses can be used to show they have a lax attitude regarding herd health.

just my :2cents:
as to finding a weak spot in their livestock practices.
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Re: I could use some advice about calves/cattle

Postby slick4591 » Tue Jan 23, 2018 9:20 pm

Can an attorney subpoena business tax records... i don't know, but may help establish calf value and scare 'em.


Yes.
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Re: I could use some advice about calves/cattle

Postby CabinetMaker » Wed Jan 24, 2018 4:00 pm

Thank you for that.
I did ask my attorney to have them produce their records once before and they claimed they don't keep any records, of any kind. Don't you guys keep records of births, deaths, ages, etc, on top of all purchases and sales? I did tell him he needs to subpoena these records. I have a feeling I'm going to get the same answer. (They also have refused to give us a lot of other things we asked for. We produced everything their attorney asked.)
This state and county are very strange. It seems all that is needed from them, to prove the cause of death and the cost of the animal is their word. There are physically more people on their side that are going to say that the calf was 100% killed by a coyote, so our attorney feels the judge is going to take their, 'word,' over ours. I feel like I'm being railroaded.
This part of the case seems petty, but like I said, it's part of a much bigger case. I hope 9 people can see what we are going through here, but my attorney said people on juries are not smart enough to get out of jury duty, so how are they going to be on our side? (It took me many phone calls to find this attorney to take this case, I may be stuck with him.)
This year anyway, I have personally witnessed a lot of calves dying over there. They have a mass grave. Strangely enough, you can see a dead calf being left in the grave on the county interactive map.
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Re: I could use some advice about calves/cattle

Postby M-5 » Wed Jan 24, 2018 4:17 pm

I highly doubt they are not keeping some kind of records so they can file their taxes unless they are truly a hobby farm and do not claim any deductions of any kind. If they are as bad as you say you should not have any issue getting others on your side. I personally keep records and I would assume if I were involved in a case the records could be found at some point but it would require a warrant because Im not going to willingly just turn them over. a lot of people keep record in just a note book but these would have to be produced in the of an IRS audit if claiming farm expenses. Which leads me to believe that if they are trying to swindle you they are swindling the IRS and could be claiming these calves that die are bought and a legitimate write off. Farm born animals are not a eligible as loss .
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Re: I could use some advice about calves/cattle

Postby M-5 » Wed Jan 24, 2018 4:20 pm

The map picture is not strange its evidence . The time stamp on the photo could work in your favor or against you.
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Re: I could use some advice about calves/cattle

Postby slick4591 » Wed Jan 24, 2018 5:29 pm

Their 1040's can also be subpoenaed and you can subpoena an IRS agent/or records custodian to produce records on them if you have enough information. (I hope your attorney has filed lots of discovery motions.) Another place to look would be their property taxes for an AG exemption. Look at this situation overall and create a legitimate paper trail to wherever. Also, check to see if they operate under an assumed name as a business. If you turn over enough rocks ad find they've lied about stuff it kills their credibility.
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Re: I could use some advice about calves/cattle

Postby Clod Hopper » Wed Jan 24, 2018 7:56 pm

I have a hard time with understanding how you could be held responsible for their calf dying no matter what the cause of death. You have no control of the management of these cattle. You filed a complaint about the propane cannon and the judge ruled they had to stop firing it. If he had no right to order that then he overstepped his authority but to make you financially responsible for their cattle seems crazy. If you file a noise complaint because you neighbor has a car with no muffler are you supposed to be responsible for his car if he wrecks it? Silly. I have coyotes in my pasture and I only have problems with them when I have a sick baby calf. 200 pounders are pretty safe.
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Re: I could use some advice about calves/cattle

Postby Son of Butch » Wed Jan 24, 2018 9:04 pm

CabinetMaker wrote:Thank you for that.
I did ask my attorney to have them produce their records once before and they claimed they don't keep any records, of any kind. Don't you guys keep records of births, deaths, ages, etc, on top of all purchases and sales? I did tell him he needs to subpoena these records. I have a feeling I'm going to get the same answer. (They also have refused to give us a lot of other things we asked for. We produced everything their attorney asked.)

I'd go hard after their tax records and business expense records used to file their taxes.
At the very least it's a pain in the axx for them.
I've been through an IRS tax audit and I don't care how clean you are with your taxes, it scares the crap out of ya.
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Re: I could use some advice about calves/cattle

Postby ddd75 » Fri Jan 26, 2018 8:05 am

sounds like you live in a corrupt county with a corrupt judge.

i've been there. i've done that. i've moved.


if you have all that going against you, you will not win, you will probably end up in jail, then on community control, and still have to pay the guy.
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Re: I could use some advice about calves/cattle

Postby BRYANT » Fri Jan 26, 2018 8:42 am

I would take ''son of Butch'' to court with me.
how many head of cattle do these people run? if its very many they have records or there is probably tax fraud. STOP asking for records and start subpoenaing. and if your Attorney is scared and beat before he gets to court then its time to get one that's not, may need one that's not local.
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Re: I could use some advice about calves/cattle

Postby M-5 » Fri Jan 26, 2018 9:04 am

BRYANT wrote:I would take ''son of Butch'' to court with me.
how many head of cattle do these people run? if its very many they have records or there is probably tax fraud. STOP asking for records and start subpoenaing. and if your Attorney is scared and beat before he gets to court then its time to get one that's not, may need one that's not local.


and you need a ambulance chaser kind of lawyer that will sue the other party and they will beat your door down to get the job.
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Re: I could use some advice about calves/cattle

Postby BRYANT » Fri Jan 26, 2018 10:20 am

[quote="CabinetMaker" (They also have refused to give us a lot of other things we asked for. We produced everything their attorney asked.)
This state and county are very strange. It seems all that is needed from them, to prove the cause of death and the cost of the animal is their word. There are physically more people on their side that are going to say that the calf was 100% killed by a coyote, so our attorney feels the judge is going to take their, 'word,' over ours. I feel like I'm being railroaded.

fire your Attorney and get one that not afraid to fight, sounds like he may be on bed with them

This year anyway, I have personally witnessed a lot of calves dying over there. They have a mass grave. Strangely enough, you can see a dead calf being left in the grave on the county interactive map.[/quote]
Get this picture use cannon guns to run coyotes off and pile up dead cattle to bring them in.
I don't know but I bet me and my Attorney could have a hay day with these people. There even laws on how you have to depose of dead livestock. It's time to bring the fight to them.
If everyone is in with them then it time to get the news media involved.
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Re: I could use some advice about calves/cattle

Postby ddd75 » Fri Jan 26, 2018 6:57 pm

BRYANT wrote:[quote="CabinetMaker" (They also have refused to give us a lot of other things we asked for. We produced everything their attorney asked.)
This state and county are very strange. It seems all that is needed from them, to prove the cause of death and the cost of the animal is their word. There are physically more people on their side that are going to say that the calf was 100% killed by a coyote, so our attorney feels the judge is going to take their, 'word,' over ours. I feel like I'm being railroaded.

fire your Attorney and get one that not afraid to fight, sounds like he may be on bed with them

This year anyway, I have personally witnessed a lot of calves dying over there. They have a mass grave. Strangely enough, you can see a dead calf being left in the grave on the county interactive map.

Get this picture use cannon guns to run coyotes off and pile up dead cattle to bring them in.
I don't know but I bet me and my Attorney could have a hay day with these people. There even laws on how you have to depose of dead livestock. It's time to bring the fight to them.
If everyone is in with them then it time to get the news media involved.[/quote]
hahahaha.. try that with a corrupt county, where everyone is behind ol' judge and his crew.

good luck in lala land :lol2:
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Re: I could use some advice about calves/cattle

Postby Bright Raven » Fri Jan 26, 2018 7:14 pm

ddd75 wrote:
BRYANT wrote:[quote="CabinetMaker" (They also have refused to give us a lot of other things we asked for. We produced everything their attorney asked.)
This state and county are very strange. It seems all that is needed from them, to prove the cause of death and the cost of the animal is their word. There are physically more people on their side that are going to say that the calf was 100% killed by a coyote, so our attorney feels the judge is going to take their, 'word,' over ours. I feel like I'm being railroaded.

fire your Attorney and get one that not afraid to fight, sounds like he may be on bed with them

This year anyway, I have personally witnessed a lot of calves dying over there. They have a mass grave. Strangely enough, you can see a dead calf being left in the grave on the county interactive map.

Get this picture use cannon guns to run coyotes off and pile up dead cattle to bring them in.
I don't know but I bet me and my Attorney could have a hay day with these people. There even laws on how you have to depose of dead livestock. It's time to bring the fight to them.
If everyone is in with them then it time to get the news media involved.

hahahaha.. try that with a corrupt county, where everyone is behind ol' judge and his crew.

good luck in lala land :lol2:[/quote]

ddd75,

There are still counties that operate under the 'Good ole boy' system in Kentucky. It is not nearly as bad as it was 30 years ago. It was amazing how corrupt the county governments were back then. The county Judge in Maggofin County Kentucky was a known thug. Same was true of Morgan County, Perry County, Breathitt County etc. The entire law enforcement and judicial system was corrupt.

The County Judge in Morgan County in about 1976 was convicted of gang murders. Same in Maggofin. The state police just left them be.
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