A (seemingly) novel idea

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Re: A (seemingly) novel idea

Postby Muddy » Mon Jun 19, 2017 11:23 am

Nesikep wrote:I'm sure the behavior of a bunch of wild momma cows and bucking bulls are different... I'm quite certain he hasn't selected for docility!

If they are killing bison regularly then I guess a saler cow shouldnt​ be an issue to the wolves.
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Re: A (seemingly) novel idea

Postby Nesikep » Mon Jun 19, 2017 2:12 pm

Perhaps they get some Salers too of course, but compared to other breeds, they're far more protective and aggressive
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Re: A (seemingly) novel idea

Postby Muddy » Mon Jun 19, 2017 3:32 pm

Nesikep wrote:Perhaps they get some Salers too of course, but compared to other breeds, they're far more protective and aggressive

Didn't see much different between salers and the other breeds. They're still no match for a wolf pack.
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Re: A (seemingly) novel idea

Postby Muddy » Mon Jun 19, 2017 3:32 pm

Anyways it seems that you don't make much money if you only selling culls and few intact bull calves.
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Re: A (seemingly) novel idea

Postby WalnutCrest » Mon Jun 19, 2017 3:43 pm

Allenw wrote:Sounds like a train wreck to me. I can't help but think there will be a lot of crippled animals and some dead animals in the end with a 1 to 1.5 bull to cow ratio.


How do you get to a 1.0 : 1.5 bull to cow ratio?

Year 1 = 2017 = existing herd sires in with existing cows on a 1 : 40 ratio (350 cows and 50 2016-born heifers to go with 10 bulls in a single grazing / breeding mob) ... bulls pulled out on September 1st and are sold putting the bull to cow ratio at 0 : 400 ... calves born earlier in 2017 (all 350 of them) are weaned on December 1st, at the same time the cows and 2016-born heifers are preg-checked ... pretending that 80% of the cows and 60% of the heifers are bred (both poor rates, but being a transition year into a new program will lead to fall out) will lead to selling 70 mama cows and 20 open heifers as grass-fed ground beef to a local wholesale buyer ... and, also pretending for a second that I'm able to talk him into (a) getting rid of the dinkiest 10% of his heifer crop (18 culls out of 175 calves) and (b) the bottom 70% of his bull calf crop (122 culls out of 175 calves) at weaning we will use those numbers to head into the second year ...

Year 2 = 2018 = 2017-born heifers (all 157 of them that are left) are reintroduced to the herd of 280 bred cows and 30 bred heifers in mid-February 2018 ... with 53 bulls still "somewhere else" getting ready to be reintroduced to the cow herd (he has pasture for this many young bulls about 2 miles from his cows and heifers) ... during the winter and spring, he (say) culls 8 bulls for temperament and/or injury getting him down to 45 yearling bulls for the next year ... in July 2018, he puts the 45 bulls with 300 pairs (pretend that 10 died during calving (5 cows and 5 heifers); again a high rate) and 150 heifers (7 of which he culled out of the original group of 157 for death, injury or temperament at some point between weaning and breeding season) ... which is a ratio of 45 bulls to 450 females (300 cows and 150 heifers) or 1 : 10 ... and then, after breeding season (if he follows my suggestion and pulls DNA on all his bulls so he can DNA test his calves for parentage) he'll sell the bulls that, in his mind are probably the 15 worst performers keeping 30 through the winter ... and in December, he'll wean the 2018 born calves, preg check the females and sell the opens (est. 33% of his female group, or 150 open females), and also sell (again) the bottom 10% of the heifer class and, raising the bar, the bottom 80% of the bull calf class (leaving 135 heifers and 30 bulls on the farm; the 135 heifers go back in with the females in mid-February and the 30 yearling bulls hang out with the 30 bulls left over from the previous year)

Year 3 = 2019 = 135 heifers go in with the cows in mid-February ... calves come (around) May 1st out of 300 mama cows and all 300 are DNA tested for parentage ... once parentage is determined, pretending that only 30 calves were sired (total) by the 15 bulls that had already been sold, and of the other 270 calves sired, 200 of them were by five bulls (the remaining 70 calves came from the other 25 bulls that were still around ... those 25 bulls can be sold as guaranteed breeders to some other operation interested in his genetics (if any) and if not, sold to the grass-fed ground beef market ... where the top 10 breeders get a 2nd summer ... while this is going on, he culls 5 heifers for temperament / health issues between weaning and breeding season ... and ... then, in July 2019, 5 2yr old bulls and 30 yearling bulls (30% of the prior year's bull calves) go in with 300 cows and 130 heifers for a 35 : 430 ratio ... then the bulls are pulled in September and all 2yr olds are sold (to anyone wanting his genetics, and if not, to grass-fed ground beef) and the bottom 1/3rd of the yearlings are sold, overwintering 30 long-yearling bulls again ... preg-checks and weaning happens in December and since it's their 2nd year in the program, there is less fall out and so only 25% of the cows are open ... resulting in the sale of 105 females (cows and heifers) and him carrying 325 bred cows and heifers over the winter ... to go along with 5 coming two-year old bulls (after culling out the lower libido bulls from the prior year) and 30 yearling bulls.

...etc...

At no time would his bull to cow ratio ever approach 1.0 : 1.5.
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Re: A (seemingly) novel idea

Postby Nesikep » Mon Jun 19, 2017 4:03 pm

Muddy wrote:
Nesikep wrote:Perhaps they get some Salers too of course, but compared to other breeds, they're far more protective and aggressive

Didn't see much different between salers and the other breeds. They're still no match for a wolf pack.

You'd have to talk to this guy about it, but as his herd became over 50-75% Angus, he's lost up to 20 calves a year, while it was FAR less before when it was predominantly Saler influence.. On a herd of about 150 head, it's certainly a consideration when choosing a breed at that point.
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Re: A (seemingly) novel idea

Postby Jeanne - Simme Valley » Sun Jun 25, 2017 9:11 am

Nesikep wrote:
Muddy wrote:
Nesikep wrote:Perhaps they get some Salers too of course, but compared to other breeds, they're far more protective and aggressive

Didn't see much different between salers and the other breeds. They're still no match for a wolf pack.

You'd have to talk to this guy about it, but as his herd became over 50-75% Angus, he's lost up to 20 calves a year, while it was FAR less before when it was predominantly Saler influence.. On a herd of about 150 head, it's certainly a consideration when choosing a breed at that point.

or there was a major increase in the wolf pack.
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Re: A (seemingly) novel idea

Postby Chocolate Cow » Sun Jun 25, 2017 9:52 am

I'd tell the guy to go for it. If it doesn't work, he'll probably be close to retirement age when it happens. There is an individual in my neck of the woods doing something similar. Only drawback is the crap cows that form his herd. Every color, every size, horned or not, old type flowered Simmentals, skunk tails, lots of gray rat tails. There's no uniformity in any aspect of his calf crop. He calves year round. Most around here consider the guy an idiot. I'm not saying your friend is an idiot, WalnutCrest. Will the same bulls be used on the cows & heifers? Only problem I foresee would be the eventual reduction of pelvic size if using low birth weight bulls on both cows & heifers?
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Re: A (seemingly) novel idea

Postby Dave » Sun Jun 25, 2017 6:52 pm

Back in college I went with a guy who lived next door to help brand. His folks ran about 1,000 momma cows. Dad was 3rd generation on a huge ranch put together in the in the late 1800's. Dad told me they hadn't run any outside cattle since 1911. This was the spring of 1970. So it was a closed herd for nearly 60 years. And I can tell you that the cattle sure didn't impress me at all. When my neighbor took over the ranch he started buying outside bulls.
I don't see the advantages to a totally closed herd. But I see big advantages to bring in the best genetic you can afford. Want to raise your own bulls. Fine. Pick a string of the best cows. Breed them to the best bull you can afford or AI them and keep the bulls.
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Re: A (seemingly) novel idea

Postby WalnutCrest » Sun Jun 25, 2017 7:21 pm

Dave wrote:Back in college I went with a guy who lived next door to help brand. His folks ran about 1,000 momma cows. Dad was 3rd generation on a huge ranch put together in the in the late 1800's. Dad told me they hadn't run any outside cattle since 1911. This was the spring of 1970. So it was a closed herd for nearly 60 years. And I can tell you that the cattle sure didn't impress me at all. When my neighbor took over the ranch he started buying outside bulls.
I don't see the advantages to a totally closed herd. But I see big advantages to bring in the best genetic you can afford. Want to raise your own bulls. Fine. Pick a string of the best cows. Breed them to the best bull you can afford or AI them and keep the bulls.


Same bulls for everyone. After the first year, they'll all be 12-16 (ish) months old.

He's not planning on calving year round ... 45 days.

And yes, if he starts with bad cattle, he'll have a brutal time succeeding.
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Re: A (seemingly) novel idea

Postby kickinbull » Sun Jun 25, 2017 8:47 pm

WalnutCrest wrote:He knows the first several years would be heavy culling.

He would sell a calf crop, just that it'd happen at a different time and for different reasons. All replacements are home grown.

The previous year's bull calves are sold in tact after breeding everything the next year. The fastest growing, best structured, most fertile, highest libido bull calves will breed the majority of the females.

All open females are sold after preg checking.

So open heifers born the previous year are sold at approximately 19 months. Open cows are sold at whatever age they don't breed back.

... maybe he determines a way to sell (say) the bottom half of his bulls to save in wintering costs ...

Again, I'm not interested in his program, but I found the idea quite thought provoking and thought is share it with you.
There will be a breeding frenzy and a LOT of competition between the bulls. We left calves uncut one season and decided it was not good.
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Re: A (seemingly) novel idea

Postby talltimber » Sun Jun 25, 2017 9:21 pm

I'd like to be there on turn out day once. I bet that's a show.
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Re: A (seemingly) novel idea

Postby Son of Butch » Sun Jun 25, 2017 10:02 pm

Dave wrote: Pick a string of the best cows. Breed them to the best bull you can afford or AI them and keep the bulls.

A.I. allows you to use bulls very very few could otherwise afford.
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Re: A (seemingly) novel idea

Postby WalnutCrest » Mon Jun 26, 2017 9:16 am

His objective is to use cattle to heal broken land and sell grass fed ground beef ... different deal than what most of us are trying to do.
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