Linebreeding Info

Got a calving or breeding question? Get an answer.
cotton1
Trail Boss
Trail Boss
Posts: 236
Joined: Wed Sep 29, 2010 12:11 pm
Location: S.C.

Linebreeding Info

Postby cotton1 » Wed Dec 14, 2016 12:38 pm

Hello all, I'm looking for info on linebreeding with regards to the information obtained by a inbreeding calculator. Some of you already know I have been moving towards reducing my gene pool in my herd for a little while now. As a registered producer I feel it is important to set a type in my cattle to provide uniformity, make my cattle identifiable within the breed, and provide as much heterosis to my customers as possible.

I was playing with a inbreeding calculator this morning using some of the matings that are taking place in my pastures right now, and comparing them to could have beens if I had chosen to AI instead of using my bull. I have looked at the inbreeding calculators before, but not too in depth so I developed a few questions.

Some of my matings offspring next fall could have coefficents ranging from 3.25% to as high as 25% on the father/daughter matings. Those 25% matings will likely become more common here over the next few years as I am pleased with the first crop on my bull and will know much more by this time next year as the second crop here and a crop off his natural service at a friends should be here this spring along with several AI calfs abroad.

So, opinions on how much coeffiecent is too much? How much is not enough( to make any difference)?

Next question: Can the % blood be used to sway the direction of the genotype for a better chance at getting the desired type in the offspring? This refers to the generations back in the pedigree a little. As an example, one of the cows had a bull in there I know is not consistent. When I did the 4 gen calculation, he was only at 6% blood. The bulls I do know are consistent, and desired for my use are at like 18% I think. I think I am wondering if I can find a magic %blood number to keep undisreables at or under untill I have some stacked genes in the first part of the pedigrees, like the father daughter matings should produce.

One more for now: If i do a 4 gen calculation and have the same bull in there 3-4 times, how does that compare to doing a say 10 gen calculation and some foundation bull back there being in there say 10 times? Will I be "mining" the old traits out?

This is not easy for me to understand. Putting the boy with the girls is easy, but I want to line breed with purpose, so I need to learn all I can.

Thanks in advance,

Cotton1
0 x

Ebenezer
Rancher
Rancher
Posts: 682
Joined: Wed Nov 25, 2015 12:46 pm

Re: Linebreeding Info

Postby Ebenezer » Wed Dec 14, 2016 1:28 pm

So, opinions on how much coeffiecent is too much?
When you see loss of workable phenotype but it is then a selection or culling of the individual and not a loss of the line.

How much is not enough( to make any difference)?
15% or less

Can the % blood be used to sway the direction of the genotype for a better chance at getting the desired type in the offspring? This refers to the generations back in the pedigree a little. As an example, one of the cows had a bull in there I know is not consistent. When I did the 4 gen calculation, he was only at 6% blood. The bulls I do know are consistent, and desired for my use are at like 18% I think. I think I am wondering if I can find a magic %blood number to keep undisreables at or under untill I have some stacked genes in the first part of the pedigrees, like the father daughter matings should produce.
Depends on the prepotency of the dud ancestor, the amount of influence inherited from him at random and the unknown of recessive genes in the cattle that you consider to be better or superior.

If i do a 4 gen calculation and have the same bull in there 3-4 times, how does that compare to doing a say 10 gen calculation and some foundation bull back there being in there say 10 times? Will I be "mining" the old traits out?

Much beyond 4 generations is just to know and little more than words. But some like to know.

This is not easy for me to understand.
Much easier that always searching for a corrector bull or something new to give you a thrill down your leg. And cheaper and more useful to any who buy better animals from you.
0 x

User avatar
pdfangus
GURU
GURU
Posts: 4396
Joined: Mon Jun 04, 2007 7:01 am
Location: Beaverdam, virginia

Re: Linebreeding Info

Postby pdfangus » Wed Dec 14, 2016 4:06 pm

you are concentrating genes

concentrating good genes and

concentrating bad genes

it is up to you to remove the bad genes and to look hard at the cattle that produced the bad genetic expression....

even if they are your favorites or most expensive.
0 x
Strength is of no value if it does not have a
useful application for good.
Jim Tate
pdfangus@gmail.com

User avatar
RanchMan90
GURU
GURU
Posts: 1192
Joined: Thu May 19, 2016 1:07 pm
Location: Southeast Oklahoma

Re: Linebreeding Info

Postby RanchMan90 » Wed Dec 14, 2016 5:07 pm

How do you calculate coefficient?
0 x
The secret to getting ahead is getting started ~ Mark Twain

cotton1
Trail Boss
Trail Boss
Posts: 236
Joined: Wed Sep 29, 2010 12:11 pm
Location: S.C.

Re: Linebreeding Info

Postby cotton1 » Wed Dec 14, 2016 6:41 pm

Using a online inbreeding calculator. They are mostly for dogs, but they are out there.

I don't know how to post the links like many do. Just search for it, they all use the same formula developed in the 1920s I believe.

15% min, got it. If 4 gens are really all that's going to matter likely, I should be OK soon. Right now I'm developing a base herd, or think I am anyway.

The most expensive ones may be relative. If I can develop a herd, and pasture that compliment each other with little input, my cows will be much cheaper. Its going to cost something to get there I'm sure.

Cotton1
0 x

WalnutCrest
GURU
GURU
Posts: 2202
Joined: Thu Jan 02, 2014 10:01 pm
Location: Northeast KS (USA)
Contact:

Re: Linebreeding Info

Postby WalnutCrest » Thu Dec 15, 2016 1:10 am

Read up on the breeding strategies deployed by those who breed racing pigeons. Shorter gestational cycles and more progeny. Some lines have extensive practical record keeping and testing, including record keeping resulting from crossing various tightly bred lines.

Transformationally interesting (at least to me).
0 x
Fullblood Aubrac & Mashona Cattle

User avatar
Son of Butch
GURU
GURU
Posts: 3895
Joined: Mon Aug 30, 2010 6:44 pm
Location: Frost Bite Falls, Minnesota

Re: Linebreeding Info

Postby Son of Butch » Thu Dec 15, 2016 2:28 pm

Dr Tatiana Stanton from Cornell University says 12.5% is the optimal level, she breeds goats and has her own goat herd.
12.5% ensures consistency and uniformity while allowing enough diversity to avoid inbred suppression across the herd.
0 x

User avatar
RanchMan90
GURU
GURU
Posts: 1192
Joined: Thu May 19, 2016 1:07 pm
Location: Southeast Oklahoma

Re: Linebreeding Info

Postby RanchMan90 » Thu Dec 15, 2016 4:13 pm

What would be the coefficient off a bull bred to his offspring? And coefficient of bull bred to grand offspring? I've always been told a good bull is half your cowherd, could be stretched to being much more with line breeding.
0 x
The secret to getting ahead is getting started ~ Mark Twain

City Guy
Rancher
Rancher
Posts: 569
Joined: Thu Jun 30, 2016 5:11 am

Re: Linebreeding Info

Postby City Guy » Thu Dec 15, 2016 6:33 pm

Am I correct when I say that the Wye herd in Maryland and the Pinebank herd in New Zealand have not introduced new stock in nearly 100 years? May also be true of the Rotokawa herd, formally of New Zealand.
0 x
Play the music, not the notes; read the story, not the words.

User avatar
Son of Butch
GURU
GURU
Posts: 3895
Joined: Mon Aug 30, 2010 6:44 pm
Location: Frost Bite Falls, Minnesota

Re: Linebreeding Info

Postby Son of Butch » Thu Dec 15, 2016 6:53 pm

It is my understanding that while the Wye herd have individuals with dozens and dozens of crosses going back to bring
up superior individuals, the herd coefficient is kept to the low side of a 6.25 - 9.38 range

But it is not something that I have looked at closely and just going by what I was told.
0 x

User avatar
Nesikep
Mentor
Mentor
Posts: 12344
Joined: Sat Dec 13, 2008 10:37 pm
Location: Lillooet, BC, Canada

Re: Linebreeding Info

Postby Nesikep » Thu Dec 15, 2016 6:56 pm

I guess the post I thought I had written I didn't post...
Here's another good link https://www.leonbergerdatabase.com/avk_e.html

I've been doing some experiments with it.. My homeraised bull bred a number of half siblings the year before last and the calves looked good.. a little small but they were all from young cows as well.. Last year he got a better quality group of cows to breed so I'll see how those calves work out for me next year
0 x
The only possible end result of treating all animals like people is that all people will be treated like animals

Waterway65
Trail Boss
Trail Boss
Posts: 206
Joined: Thu May 01, 2014 7:49 pm
Location: South Dakota

Re: Linebreeding Info

Postby Waterway65 » Thu Dec 15, 2016 8:08 pm

Line breeding is a tool. When I was in college at SDSU the dairy science department was experimenting with inbreeding trying to develop two separate lines. They Definitly found the under oracle traits from what I saw. When they crossed the two lines later they Definitly produced a animal superior to the parents. However had they simply used the best genetic available to the breed they would have improved the herd faster. Line breeding can be useful but seeking out top animals that can meet your criteria where ever is probably more important.
0 x

Ebenezer
Rancher
Rancher
Posts: 682
Joined: Wed Nov 25, 2015 12:46 pm

Re: Linebreeding Info

Postby Ebenezer » Thu Dec 15, 2016 10:21 pm

Linebreeding rule #1 - have a purpose defined before you start. #2 Be sure that nobody already has what you need for your purpose as it is easier to buy than to breed.

12.5% is a super safe level. To create true prepotency you need the spirit of the late Bubba the reneck, of most southern communities who had the final words of , "Hey ya'll, ... Watch this!" and bump up higher.
0 x

cotton1
Trail Boss
Trail Boss
Posts: 236
Joined: Wed Sep 29, 2010 12:11 pm
Location: S.C.

Re: Linebreeding Info

Postby cotton1 » Fri Dec 16, 2016 4:53 pm

Ranchman90-I believe a bull bred to his daughter will produce a calf with a 25% coefficient. Not sure about the bull to his grand, but it may be as low as 5-6% I would guess.

Folks I know who do it have a type thats suitable, and repeatable. If the foundation is any good you can "Watch this" for decades from what Ive seen.

I was just wondering if anybody could tell me a % blood that would have an effect on the offspring that would be substantial, as if it were a tool to gauge probability. In hind sight of a inbred calf none of this really matters to me. I was just wondering if there was a way to minimally project what would likely happen using a inbred calculators percentages in a pedigree if plugged in before a mating took place. Much like "doing the math" with EPDs.

This kind of info would require somebody had been down that path and made some observations. I can tuff it out myself just fine, but since I am creating a basis for my next herd I thought I would ask. You never know what you can learn if you ask.As I hear a lot when things get weird, "their just cows". Lessons learned hardest, are lessons learned best so it seems.

If this post seems like I'm a be nice, I don't intend it that way. I appreciate all contributions to this thread thus far. I can see where it may seem that way to some. Maybe I am over thinking things, but when there is a question in my mind and no answer to be found, it is frustration.

Cotton1
0 x

Ebenezer
Rancher
Rancher
Posts: 682
Joined: Wed Nov 25, 2015 12:46 pm

Re: Linebreeding Info

Postby Ebenezer » Fri Dec 16, 2016 5:35 pm

I was just wondering if anybody could tell me a % blood that would have an effect on the offspring that would be substantial, as if it were a tool to gauge probability.


Each genepool will respond differently so that annswer is "it depends". The 12.5% mentioned is a sustainable population but we do not know if that is the average of the population or the maximum allowed per individual. As either, it is borderline and probably would relate to the 1st cousin rule or somewhere there about. That was Lent's upper limit which he imposed upon himself. Wye probably has individuals as high as 15 or 20% but overall are low % IBC.

Linebreeding is about the population but the individuals still need evaluation to see if they are fits or outliers. It is hard to sell a highly inbred bull that is a good fit.

You will know "when" by slip of function and/or phenotype and you do not think that you can afford them anymore. There is a sag early on, according to Falloon, called the Bulmer effect. Get past it and things can rebound from an assumed failure. From historic efforts and other folks who are still linebreeding - expect 85% failure (total line depletion) of initial lines when trialed at significant inbreeding efforts.

A tight genepool is a double whammy. You work with what you start with and then realize that as in every generational interval there is genetic loss rather than genetic gain. The other things that come along are mutations, good and bad, and the stacking of recessive genes.
0 x


Return to “Breeding / Calving Issues”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest