Linebreeding Info

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Nesikep
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Re: Linebreeding Info

Postby Nesikep » Mon Dec 26, 2016 6:44 pm

I have found surprisingly little correlation between mature cow size and mature bull size.. It's very rare I've seen a truly mature bull under 2000 lbs.. The Gelbveih in my avatar picture was 2100 at 7 years old, most of his daughters are ~1300.. Then my Shorthorn, Angus and Saler bulls were all around 2400 lbs mature weight, but their daughters were all 16-1800 lb cows.. so a 500 lb difference in mature cow weight but only 300 lb in mature bull weight.. It's an odd correlation that is definitely counterintuitive.. it certainly isnt a 10% increase in cow size = 10% increase in bull size (at least by weight)
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Re: Linebreeding Info

Postby WalnutCrest » Tue Dec 27, 2016 12:37 am

IMO, a reasonable guess is mature cow size (while in excellent condition) would be the average of (i) 60-75% of their sires' size (while in excellent condition) and (ii) their dams' weight while in excellent condition.

So, 1200 lb cow bred by a 2000lb bull will probably result in a mature cow who is between 1200 and 1350.
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Re: Linebreeding Info

Postby cotton1 » Tue Dec 27, 2016 8:45 am

OK, I get your point on the difference in bull size compared to cow size. Will that change once the herd is very tightly bred, well over the 12.5-15% IBC?

If not, should expected weaning weights on bull calf's be higher in proportion to heifer calf's? What I need to define for myself is an acceptable growth rate for culling. It would be nice if we could just let them all grow up first, but that is not going to make me money I'm sure.

With the information posted recently here in consideration , where do you expect your cattle to wean vs expected finished weight? I think earlier Ebby said 40-45%. If that's right,here is my calculations, they might be wrong(old math): 2000lb bull bred to 1300lb cows should yield a finished weight on a heifer calf of 1250-1400lbs x 40%=500 to 560,x 45%=560 to 630.
So then should bulls be considered to reach their sires weight of 2000? In that case bulls should wean at 800 to 900lbs.

To date I do have heifer weights (205) in the mid to upper 5 weights, and sometimes as high as 7 weights. I dont like the ones that make 7 weight normally, because they turn out to be big cows. I regularly see 205 weights on my bulls in the 6 weight range and sometimes 7 weights. I don't think I have ever produced a calf with a 800lb weaning weight, but I see them on calf's from time to time in sales catalogs. So I still don't know what to believe about the bull calf weaning weights.I don't want to make giant cattle, even bulls.

Over the last few years I think I have been giving the pass to heifers at 500, and bulls at 600. Had a sales manager tell me that any calf should weigh 100lbs for every month it is in age. I told him that if you show me an 11mo heifer that weighs 1100lbs I bet I can show you a fat heifer that looks like a bull and wont breed. My females are normally around 8 weight at 12-13 months old. In fact 13 mo, and 800lbs with a natural, regular cycle will qualify here to be bred. Age of breeding/first calving can play a part in finished cow weight too.

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Re: Linebreeding Info

Postby Ebenezer » Tue Dec 27, 2016 9:19 am

should expected weaning weights on bull calf's be higher in proportion to heifer calf's?
Yes, and they always are. Hormones.

should bulls be considered to reach their sires weight
Yes. But in how many years? Yet with same feeding regime. Example: weaning data on bulls here in past years calculated to larger FS and more growth than measured at 12 months. Reason: EPDs are based on full expression of growth while real farm data on fescue based pastures created an environmental restriction.

In that case bulls should wean at ...
Do not compare to other breeds or lines. Each line has it's own growth curve, milk production, environment, ...

Sale managers are selling mainstream cattle and not linebred cattle. Nobody walks in a Whole Foods store and asks for the genetic, cheapest, run of the mill. While on this subject: there are 3 kinds of ads: market presence, sale emphasis and educational. Market presence: create a recognizable name by the repetition of merely being seen month after month and year after year: "Hey I've hear of them". Sales: Animals and stuff ready to go and here they are. Less used: educational - offer info to producers why you are doing what you are doing and what your animals do for you and what they can do for them. If you stay with linebred animals you will become more distant from the mainstream (and sale managers) and your ads will become more educational to reach others with what you know and how it can help them. Just stick with facts and truth and you will gain market share but the breeding grunt work (and time) has to precede the sales.
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Re: Linebreeding Info

Postby farmerjan » Tue Dec 27, 2016 10:06 am

Cotton, I do understand about the "standardizing" of 205 days for weaning weights as we do look at those numbers when we attend bull sales, as well as the yearling weights. But we also look at the data for the animals' pedigrees and what those cattle in the background have done. And we have to like the looks of the animal even if he isn't the "biggest". It seems to me that if that bull calf is so right in so many ways, I would either keep him or find a farm/ranch that would be able to appreciate his background. Maybe some place where you can work out a deal to evaluate him after a crop of calves is on the ground. And yes, I can agree that the way your neighbor is calling them weanlings is different than yours, but as several of the others on here have said, you are trying to compare two different "sets" of data due to the purebred vs commercial mindset. Anyone that is smart will ask what age the calves were weaned at to get that weight. We have a neighbor that does the same, and he constantly talks about how much more money he gets for his "bigger" calves. Then I will show him a homemade chart of what the different weights will bring, by the pound for different weights, and then show what we made on smaller weights but being able to carry a few more cows so sold more calves and we nearly always come out ahead year after year. His cows are bigger and they eat alot more too than most of ours.
So I do get what you were saying, just that you seemed to be talking yourself out of an exceptional bull just because he doesn't meet the "figures"...
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Re: Linebreeding Info

Postby Nesikep » Tue Dec 27, 2016 12:01 pm

I think the reason for bulls higher mature weight is they just keep growing for longer in their life (OK they do grow a little faster at first too), but a 2 year old bull can still be putting on significant daily gain.. a 2 year old cow has a calf to raise and to breed back.. she's not going to be growing nearly as much.
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Re: Linebreeding Info

Postby cotton1 » Tue Dec 27, 2016 5:09 pm

Farmerjan-That little bull calf's name is Vinny. Dont worry about Vinny too much, I'm probably not going to cut his head off.The thing I was wanting to get to there was that all boy calf's shouldn't be bulls. Even sometimes when the odds are he should be a bull. But the thing about inbreeding depression can play a part too. Since I am trying to find areas of reason for a new culling process, I have to consider that the calf's that grow out slower might sire calf's that grow out better because of prepotency. I had some great conversation today on the subject and maybe my "mindset" will change as mentioned here before. Im glad you are involved with this thread. If you dont know a lot of details about linebreeding,you are in good company. Hopefully we will all learn some things together,and maybe think outside the box more. Oh, if you like Charolais bulls I bet Vinny would like it in Virginia about fall of '17. :D He will likely make his way to a commercial herd somewhere around then.

So I know bulls will probably be bigger animals when mature than the cows in a line bred herd. Still not 100% of how to understand the linebreeding depression and its effects on things like growth, and maturation. Measuring my cattle against my cattle and nobody else's seem to be part of the future process here as the herd tightens up.

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Re: Linebreeding Info

Postby JWBrahman » Wed Dec 28, 2016 7:25 am

Cotton I can show you a heifer who was 1100 @ 11 months who is about to calve at 23 months. Her half brother was 675 @ 6 months and he has been breeding Angus cows for the past month.

Don't be offended but you are probably still a few calf crops away from linebreeding. My advice would be to find similar type Charolais with different genetics to cross with your herd. Do not stray from type and you will be successful.

You should read this before inbreeding:
Control of Canine Genetic Diseases by George Padgett
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Re: Linebreeding Info

Postby Faraway » Wed Dec 28, 2016 10:54 am

JWBrahman wrote:Don't be offended but you are probably still a few calf crops away from linebreeding.


I don't know how anybody could find that offensive... :roll:

I'm sure I shouldn't ask, but how many calf crops do you need before you linebreed? And why would that be?

I mean, really, it seems like it'll either work or it won't? And you can surely pound out or otherwise consume your mistakes.
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Re: Linebreeding Info

Postby JWBrahman » Wed Dec 28, 2016 11:02 am

Faraway wrote:
JWBrahman wrote:Don't be offended but you are probably still a few calf crops away from linebreeding.


I don't know how anybody could find that offensive... :roll:

I'm sure I shouldn't ask, but how many calf crops do you need before you linebreed? And why would that be?

I mean, really, it seems like it'll either work or it won't? And you can surely pound out or otherwise consume your mistakes.


JD Hudgins had several herds of 400 head that he used in his linebreeding program. Guys with a small operation who start inbreeding get into trouble they can't fix. Hence the reference to the Padgett book.
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Re: Linebreeding Info

Postby Faraway » Wed Dec 28, 2016 11:16 am

JWBrahman wrote:
Faraway wrote:
JWBrahman wrote:Don't be offended but you are probably still a few calf crops away from linebreeding.


I don't know how anybody could find that offensive... :roll:

I'm sure I shouldn't ask, but how many calf crops do you need before you linebreed? And why would that be?

I mean, really, it seems like it'll either work or it won't? And you can surely pound out or otherwise consume your mistakes.


JD Hudgins had several herds of 400 head that he used in his linebreeding program. Guys with a small operation who start inbreeding get into trouble they can't fix. Hence the reference to the Padgett book.


So Cotton needs to have enough calf crops so that he'll have several herds of 400 head. Wonder how many calf crops that'd be?

And my guess is, other than finding a lethal or otherwise very bad defect that was already present-- which would actually be a service to other breeders-- Cotton will have plenty of time to correct any problems that develop. If he hates the calves, he can pretty easily get a new bull or some outcross semen. As for the calves he hates, if he hates them, I'm pretty sure cold paper packages of cattle, or a trip to the sale barn, will straighten that out.
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Re: Linebreeding Info

Postby JWBrahman » Wed Dec 28, 2016 11:41 am

Faraway I am sure it's a total coincidence you have identical syntax and word choice as half a dozen posters on this website.
Bwahahaha
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Re: Linebreeding Info

Postby Faraway » Wed Dec 28, 2016 11:56 am

JWBrahman wrote:Faraway I am sure it's a total coincidence you have identical syntax and word choice as half a dozen posters on this website.
Bwahahaha


I'm not sure what that's about. I do endeavor to choose the best word that gets the job done, and use pretty typical American English syntax.

Anyway, just wondering what problems Cotton might "cause" by inbreeding his cattle... I mean, they really aren't like dogs-- they are for eating, and generally eating when they are fairly young. So whatever problems might happen, short of lethal defects, well, they were gonna get eaten anyway?

And wondering how a few more calf crops before inbreeding his cattle will prevent those problems.

If you're concerned about hidden genetic defects, one might reasonably argue that another generation or two of hiding those defects in an outcross breeding program is actually a bad idea.
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Re: Linebreeding Info

Postby Ebenezer » Wed Dec 28, 2016 12:43 pm

Guys with a small operation who start inbreeding get into trouble they can't fix.
Must be an old wive's tale. Who perpetuated the genetic defects recently in AAA? Big boys - more than you know.

Inbreeding is one straw away or one son/dam, daughter.sire away. A linebreeding program is based on years. If outcrossing fixes problems then why are mainstream breeders always looking for correction or improvement?

We have been through some basics earlier: have a goal(s), plan on 85% failure, cull phenotypically, select environmental fit.

In outcrossed programs, the EPDs are better than the animals. In a linebred program, the improved breeders are better than the EPDs.
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Re: Linebreeding Info

Postby Stocker Steve » Wed Dec 28, 2016 1:05 pm

Ebenezer wrote:If outcrossing fixes problems then why are mainstream breeders always looking for correction or improvement?

We have been through some basics earlier: have a goal(s), plan on 85% failure, cull phenotypically, select environmental fit.


Been wondering in this area. Since we have been breeding cattle for thousands of years - - you would assume we could have arrive at some steady state environmentally fit level long ago. Are we changing goals, or tinkering too much, or is the environment changing :hide: or ?
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