A (seemingly) novel idea

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WalnutCrest
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A (seemingly) novel idea

Postby WalnutCrest » Sat Jun 17, 2017 3:41 pm

From a friend who is thinking low input, low stress. He could not care less about pedigrees, color or polled status ... but he thinks lots about grass and forage availability ...

May 1, 2017 -- calves are born

July 15, 2017 -- existing bulls turned out with all cows and heifers for one final year

September 1, 2017 -- bulls pulled and sold

December 1, 2017 -- cows and heifers are preg checked, all 2017 calves are weaned; bull calves never castrated; open cows and heifers are sold

January 15, 2018 -- 2017 heifer calves turned back out with the cows

July 15, 2018 -- all 2017 bull calves turned out with all cows and heifers

September 1, 2018 -- all 2017 bulls are pulled and sold

December 1, 2018 -- 2018 calves weaned, cows and heifers preg checked and opens sold

...etc...

Run a closed herd, letting the most vigorous and fertile (and fastest growing) cattle breed. Cull for temperament as needed. (Maybe) never have to buy another bull again.
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Re: A (seemingly) novel idea

Postby Nesikep » Sat Jun 17, 2017 4:06 pm

I think it might work, but may need a little more management on the bulls, and without a LARGE herd, might end up with problems after a shorter while with that kind of breeding.. also, you'll never know what bull sired which calves, etc.

Around here the weaning time wouldn't work too well, markets are usually down because of bad weather for transporting, etc, but with that late a calving time you would be leaving money on the table weaning at much younger an age... Everyone is free to try what they want though, and it would be interesting to see how it works
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Re: A (seemingly) novel idea

Postby TennesseeTuxedo » Sat Jun 17, 2017 4:43 pm

No vaccination program or back grounding either I gather?
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Re: A (seemingly) novel idea

Postby Jeanne - Simme Valley » Sat Jun 17, 2017 5:09 pm

So bulls are breeding sisters & dams. What is gained by this? Bulls will be 16 month old and sold in September. Is there a "great" market for bulls in September. Is this his way of being able to raise & to sell older bulls? I just don't understand what he is trying to accomplish. What am I missing? If I turned my heifers back out with the herd in 45 days, I can pretty well guarantee I would have some calves back sucking. To each his own.
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Re: A (seemingly) novel idea

Postby Stocker Steve » Sat Jun 17, 2017 5:50 pm

1) With my cattle - - a 7/15 turnout will result in a lot of calves starting about 4/16.
2) I have found that breeding season is extended by relying on yearling bulls.
3) One can buy a (black!) AI sired 2 year old bull here for $1.00 to $1.10 per pound. That is easier to me than overwintering bulls.
4) Weaning too early unless cow feed is expensive.
5) No justification for preg check in a low input system.

Good goal - - bad plan.
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Re: A (seemingly) novel idea

Postby talltimber » Sat Jun 17, 2017 8:00 pm

Only downside readily apparent to me would be the heifers might start to suck again. Line breeders don't think twice about breeding brothers, sisters, dams, sires, cousins every which way. No problem there, in and of itself? Seven months is plenty old enough to wean. My oldest calves were seven months, some 5.5. They are all doing fine, but they had grass. I dont think selling off open cows before winter would be a bad call to limit inputs in the winter? Selling bigger bulls, they may would go to slaughter. They additional weight would make them bring more than they would as calves I would think?
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Re: A (seemingly) novel idea

Postby Son of Butch » Sat Jun 17, 2017 8:02 pm

WalnutCrest wrote:From a friend..... He could not care less about pedigrees...
July 15, 2017 -- existing bulls turned out with all cows and heifers for one final year

September 1, 2017 -- bulls pulled and sold

July 15, 2018 -- all 2017 bull calves turned out with all cows and heifers

September 1, 2018 -- all 2017 bulls are pulled and sold

...etc... and repeat?

Run a closed herd..... Cull for temperament as needed. (Maybe) never have to buy another bull again.

And never sells a calf crop?

I will give him credit for thinking outside of the box.... but there is no reason to reinvent the wheel with a bad plan.
Whose successful program is he basing this on? Seems his main goal is to never buy a bull again.
Since he doesn't care about pedigrees, I question the quality of his existing starter herd and bulls.
The herd is going to run into major inbreeding suppression and intensive inbreeding of a random herd = a lot of culls.

IF he wants to give it a go for 1 year/rotation, I believe he'll find selling 2018 bull calves and taking that money to buy
new bulls in 2019 will be more profitable than repeating the cycle.
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Re: A (seemingly) novel idea

Postby M-5 » Sat Jun 17, 2017 8:11 pm

I'm curious where replacements come from.
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Re: A (seemingly) novel idea

Postby Son of Butch » Sat Jun 17, 2017 8:14 pm

talltimber wrote:Line breeders don't think twice about breeding brothers, sisters, dams, sires, cousins every which way.

Actually Breeders do a lot of Thinking about which dams and sires to use when line breeding and never mate them
without a reason, it is not just because they are 1/2 brothers and 1/2 sisters and I don't want to buy a bull.

Someone that doesn't care about pedigrees doesn't care about which dams or sires to use and are just inbreeding them
willy nilly because they can, with out any genuine plan.
Last edited by Son of Butch on Sat Jun 17, 2017 8:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: A (seemingly) novel idea

Postby M.Magis » Sat Jun 17, 2017 8:15 pm

Only problem I see is wintering all those bulls. May as well keep the best and sell the rest. No sense in feeding the ones not needed.
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Re: A (seemingly) novel idea

Postby Son of Butch » Sat Jun 17, 2017 8:26 pm

Stocker Steve wrote:Good goal - - bad plan.

+1 :)
IF this simple plan yielded good results, it would already have been the standard for hundreds of years.
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Re: A (seemingly) novel idea

Postby talltimber » Sat Jun 17, 2017 8:31 pm

SOB, you conveniently quit quoting a sentence too quick didn't you?

"No problem there, in and of itself?"

When they have their picks lined up, do they think twice about breeding brothers, sisters, dams, sires, cousins? Surely you don't need a pedigree link? I know you don't because you seem pretty knowledgeable, more so than me, which is not saying much, and I know what linebreeding is. Just because his pick is not your pick does not automatically make it wrong. You ever hear of dumb luck? Anyway with that many bulls, surely one will hit, eventually.

Ye of so little faith. Someone has to be the groundbreaker.
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Re: A (seemingly) novel idea

Postby Son of Butch » Sat Jun 17, 2017 8:33 pm

M.Magis wrote:Only problem I see is wintering all those bulls.

Biggest problem with inbreeding suppression, in my opinion, is the direct correlation between inbreeding % and the
proven increase in the % of stillbirths.
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Re: A (seemingly) novel idea

Postby talltimber » Sat Jun 17, 2017 8:38 pm

M-5 wrote:I'm curious where replacements come from.


I was assuming he was raising them. Closed herd?
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Re: A (seemingly) novel idea

Postby talltimber » Sat Jun 17, 2017 8:43 pm

Do you have a link or just a recommendation for some reading on that SOB?
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