Calving Ease

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Jeanne - Simme Valley
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Calving Ease

Postby Jeanne - Simme Valley » Sun Nov 19, 2017 11:14 am

A lot of us know what Simmental were like back in the 90's, 80's & even 70's. But, we aren't talking about that. Let's talk about the modern Simmental - the same ones that many $%itch about having so much Angus in them and that's why they are black. (so shouldn't the Angus in them make them CE??)
Well, back in 1972 I had black Simmentals - half bloods. Black Simmies have been around from the day their semen was imported. But, my herd of black (and reds) would DNA test out to be 99% Simmental now & for many, many years. I have to admit, I have been using some 3/4% bulls, which will increase the Angus in them.
But, point being made, there are probably just as high a percentage of Simmental bulls that are easy calving as their are Angus bulls. The "modern" Angus bull isn't exactly the perfect role model of CE anymore. There are hard calvers in the breed - as in ALL breeds. We all, as breeders need to pay attention to genetics & the tools given us to make sound breeding decisions.
I look at my replacement heifers as my most up & coming genetics, and I definitely would not consider breeding her to a super calving ease bull that did not have great growth and other attributes needed to make a great cow.
With the tools we have, you should never have to breed heifers to a "throw away" calf producer (meaning not keeping the offspring as a breeder).
My heifers' calves may weigh a little less than a mature cow's at weaning, but they are not less at breeding time - because I use a bull with GROWTH.
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Re: Calving Ease

Postby bse » Sun Nov 19, 2017 12:47 pm

I understand your point, quit with Simmental a few yrs back for no other reason than didnt want to keep up with 2 breeds.
Now from your post are you breeding your replacements to have huge numbers, or to produce good females? What number in the growth makes you want to use them? YW really shouldn't apply, MW or YH in angus don't know which of these may apply in SIM. Not trying to start any arguments just curious what people pick to produce the females your talking about. Or are you talking about lbs on calves out of heifers?
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Re: Calving Ease

Postby Bright Raven » Sun Nov 19, 2017 12:54 pm

The Modern American Simmental. Yes. As you say, the black was in the genetic pool going all the way back to the progenitors of the domestic bovine, Bos taurus.

In regard to CE, I don't get much difference at my farm whether I use Angus or Simmental semen. In fact, the largest calf at my farm was Megadorus, a calf out of Werner War Party.

I am moving my cows in the direct of all PB Simmental. I have some half bloods but like you, the future is in my replacement heifers and I have bred them toward 100% simmental. I use almost exclusively, PB semen. I bred the first cow this morning to Broadway. This starts my 2017 breeding season. I have 16 cows and 5 heifers to breed. I am using 1143Y, Cowboy Cut, Broadway, Upgrade, HPF Optimizer and Elevate.
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Re: Calving Ease

Postby True Grit Farms » Sun Nov 19, 2017 3:49 pm

Bright Raven wrote:The Modern American Simmental. Yes. As you say, the black was in the genetic pool going all the way back to the progenitors of the domestic bovine, Bos taurus.

In regard to CE, I don't get much difference at my farm whether I use Angus or Simmental semen. In fact, the largest calf at my farm was Megadorus, a calf out of Werner War Party.

I am moving my cows in the direct of all PB Simmental. I have some half bloods but like you, the future is in my replacement heifers and I have bred them toward 100% simmental. I use almost exclusively, PB semen. I bred the first cow this morning to Broadway. This starts my 2017 breeding season. I have 16 cows and 5 heifers to breed. I am using 1143Y, Cowboy Cut, Broadway, Upgrade, HPF Optimizer and Elevate.

Breeding to a back Hereford will give you more white faced calves.
And yes the Angus has helped the Simmental birth weights and color. When I first remember hearing about Simmental cattle all were a beautiful deep red, or red - brown color. Now there's more blazed faced black Simmental bulls than red Simmental bulls, probably 10 to 1.
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Re: Calving Ease

Postby Jeanne - Simme Valley » Sun Nov 19, 2017 6:00 pm

bse - I don't breed anything for numbers. I use numbers as a tool, but I could give a rat's a$$ what numbers I end up with (pardon my French). I pick a bull that will give me the correct package bred to each cow.
I should clarify. I don't care if the growth numbers are a little less than breed average when I am looking for a CE bull. I am going to get enough "growth" out of my calves.
And, I may use a bull with a CE +16, but that was not why I picked him. I don't go over the top looking for a super CE bull. I grow out my heifers prior to breeding, so I expect my heifers to be able to spit out a 70-90# calf. I may have 1 calf in the high 60's out of a heifer - but very unusual. Most are in the 80's - out of heifers. My cows are mostly 80-100, with a few over 100#. But most of my cows can cough and have a 120# calf. Herd average weight is about 1550#.
When picking a bull for a heifer, I just make sure they are not cow-killers!!
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Re: Calving Ease

Postby Jeanne - Simme Valley » Sun Nov 19, 2017 6:03 pm

TrueGrit - you are soooo right. It is extremely difficult to find a GREAT red bull. Blacks are a dime a dozen. About 1/2 my herd (little less) is red, so it is important to find good red bulls.
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Re: Calving Ease

Postby True Grit Farms » Sun Nov 19, 2017 6:25 pm

http://shenandoahvalleysimmentals.com
This lady had some beautiful red Simmental cattle. And the history lesson alone was worth the trip.
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Re: Calving Ease

Postby Bright Raven » Sun Nov 19, 2017 6:35 pm

True Grit Farms wrote:
Bright Raven wrote:The Modern American Simmental. Yes. As you say, the black was in the genetic pool going all the way back to the progenitors of the domestic bovine, Bos taurus.

In regard to CE, I don't get much difference at my farm whether I use Angus or Simmental semen. In fact, the largest calf at my farm was Megadorus, a calf out of Werner War Party.

I am moving my cows in the direct of all PB Simmental. I have some half bloods but like you, the future is in my replacement heifers and I have bred them toward 100% simmental. I use almost exclusively, PB semen. I bred the first cow this morning to Broadway. This starts my 2017 breeding season. I have 16 cows and 5 heifers to breed. I am using 1143Y, Cowboy Cut, Broadway, Upgrade, HPF Optimizer and Elevate.

Breeding to a back Hereford will give you more white faced calves.
And yes the Angus has helped the Simmental birth weights and color. When I first remember hearing about Simmental cattle all were a beautiful deep red, or red - brown color. Now there's more blazed faced black Simmental bulls than red Simmental bulls, probably 10 to 1.


Vince,

Color is not the only objective. Black Simmentals with white blaze are very popular among many Kentucky breeders of Simmentals. But going outside the breed to get black with white face, i.e., using a black Hereford, is contrary to my stated objective. My objective is to move toward a herd of PB Simmentals, crossing with black Hereford is not going to achieve that.
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Re: Calving Ease

Postby True Grit Farms » Sun Nov 19, 2017 6:43 pm

Bright Raven wrote:
True Grit Farms wrote:
Bright Raven wrote:The Modern American Simmental. Yes. As you say, the black was in the genetic pool going all the way back to the progenitors of the domestic bovine, Bos taurus.

In regard to CE, I don't get much difference at my farm whether I use Angus or Simmental semen. In fact, the largest calf at my farm was Megadorus, a calf out of Werner War Party.

I am moving my cows in the direct of all PB Simmental. I have some half bloods but like you, the future is in my replacement heifers and I have bred them toward 100% simmental. I use almost exclusively, PB semen. I bred the first cow this morning to Broadway. This starts my 2017 breeding season. I have 16 cows and 5 heifers to breed. I am using 1143Y, Cowboy Cut, Broadway, Upgrade, HPF Optimizer and Elevate.

Breeding to a back Hereford will give you more white faced calves.
And yes the Angus has helped the Simmental birth weights and color. When I first remember hearing about Simmental cattle all were a beautiful deep red, or red - brown color. Now there's more blazed faced black Simmental bulls than red Simmental bulls, probably 10 to 1.


Vince,

Color is not the only objective. Black Simmentals with white blaze are very popular among many Kentucky breeders of Simmentals. But going outside the breed to get black with white face, i.e., using a black Hereford, is contrary to my stated objective. My objective is to move toward a herd of PB Simmentals, crossing with black Hereford is not going to achieve that.

I'm fully aware of what your trying to do. Breeding for a white face is doing nothing for the Simmental breed. IMO Can't you still breed up to PB with Simmental?
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Re: Calving Ease

Postby Bright Raven » Sun Nov 19, 2017 6:50 pm

True Grit Farms wrote:
Bright Raven wrote:
True Grit Farms wrote:Breeding to a back Hereford will give you more white faced calves.
And yes the Angus has helped the Simmental birth weights and color. When I first remember hearing about Simmental cattle all were a beautiful deep red, or red - brown color. Now there's more blazed faced black Simmental bulls than red Simmental bulls, probably 10 to 1.


Vince,

Color is not the only objective. Black Simmentals with white blaze are very popular among many Kentucky breeders of Simmentals. But going outside the breed to get black with white face, i.e., using a black Hereford, is contrary to my stated objective. My objective is to move toward a herd of PB Simmentals, crossing with black Hereford is not going to achieve that.

I'm fully aware of what your trying to do. Breeding for a white face is doing nothing for the Simmental breed. IMO Can't you still breed up to PB with Simmental?


You can breed up to PB under American Simmental Association bylaws.

My point is that introducing Black Hereford into my herd is not breeding up.
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Re: Calving Ease

Postby Jeanne - Simme Valley » Sun Nov 19, 2017 9:27 pm

Some people "chase" the white blaze. I absolutely love white markings on the face. Even like a little chrome elsewhere. but, I do not breed for it. If I get it, yeah! I do not make breeding decisions on it.
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Re: Calving Ease

Postby Bright Raven » Sun Nov 19, 2017 11:15 pm

Jeanne - Simme Valley wrote:Some people "chase" the white blaze. I absolutely love white markings on the face. Even like a little chrome elsewhere. but, I do not breed for it. If I get it, yeah! I do not make breeding decisions on it.


Maybe True Grit should speak for me because he stated above that "I'm fully aware of what your trying to do." The fact is that we (Kris of Fire Sweep Simmentals) don't breed for blaze faces. We are cognizant of when a mating might produce a white blaze, but Kris matches the sire to my cows that she thinks will compliment the qualities of the cow.
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Re: Calving Ease

Postby True Grit Farms » Mon Nov 20, 2017 3:08 am

Bright Raven wrote:
Jeanne - Simme Valley wrote:Some people "chase" the white blaze. I absolutely love white markings on the face. Even like a little chrome elsewhere. but, I do not breed for it. If I get it, yeah! I do not make breeding decisions on it.


Maybe True Grit should speak for me because he stated above that "I'm fully aware of what your trying to do." The fact is that we (Kris of Fire Sweep Simmentals) don't breed for blaze faces. We are cognizant of when a mating might produce a white blaze, but Kris matches the sire to my cows that she thinks will compliment the qualities of the cow.

BS.
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Re: Calving Ease

Postby Jeanne - Simme Valley » Mon Nov 20, 2017 6:06 am

What bull is 1143Y?
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Re: Calving Ease

Postby angus9259 » Mon Nov 20, 2017 6:27 am

I reckon it all depends on what you are trying to do. People have looooooooooong memories. I sell bulls and can sell 10 angus for every simmi bull I could sell. People are still afraid of CE. So, if my world is limited and I'm selling bulls, I'm angus (in my area).

If I'm taking calves to a salebarn? I'm using a black simmi or hereford on my angus cows. Or a simmi bull on F1 black baldy cows. Gotta be black but something other than angus will help.

If I'm a simmi purist (which there needs to be some to preserve a breed) then I'm red. There is genetic value in pure simmi. Can you make any money being a purist? I can't. Maybe someone can?
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