A question for commercial guys.

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Jeanne - Simme Valley
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Re: A question for commercial guys.

Postby Jeanne - Simme Valley » Fri Jan 12, 2018 8:31 pm

EPD's are just a TOOL.
You can have consistency using different bulls, IF you have specific criteria's in choosing bulls.
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Re: A question for commercial guys.

Postby wbvs58 » Fri Jan 12, 2018 10:54 pm

gcreekrch wrote:
wbvs58 wrote:My aim is to use 3 or 4 AI bulls with the attributes I am after and if their calves are shaping up OK I will aim to use that bull for 3 years and then move on. I see your point, you are not after over the top performance more reliability in the traits you are after.

Ken


Why not breed them all to one sire and then take those daughters to another single sire. Makes for far more consistancy. I think it's mostly the purebred breeders seeking the "over the top" sires, hoping they can reproduce for bigger dollars.


If that single sire doesn't produce what I am after I have all my eggs in the one basket. Might be worth considering just doing one round of AI and then using a home grown bull to blend my cow families along with a bit of in breeding. Might be something I have overlooked with aiming to get 100% AI bred, would make life a lot simpler.

The reason I have tried to get 100 % AI bred come to think of it was that calves born to unproven homebred sires did not get numbers against them for many traits until they were measured and recorded and even then there would be gaps in their figures in sale catalogues. With changes in calculating EBV's and the use of genomics those gaps are now all filled in. My reasoning might be a bit shallow however when selling in a multivendor sale you are competing against the next breeder for the available money so physical appearance and the appearance of the catalogue do count. I now sell in partnerships with another local breeder who has very similar views to me and we work together very well and don't compete.

Ken
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Re: A question for commercial guys.

Postby Jeanne - Simme Valley » Sat Jan 13, 2018 6:56 am

The convenience of using a natural cover is immense. We used a homegrown bull for cleanup for a few years. We would AI for 42 days, then turn the bull in for 21-24 days. He can catch the "screw ups" easier.
But, I am back doing 100% AI.
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Re: A question for commercial guys.

Postby Bright Raven » Sat Jan 13, 2018 7:00 am

wbvs58 wrote:
gcreekrch wrote:
wbvs58 wrote:My aim is to use 3 or 4 AI bulls with the attributes I am after and if their calves are shaping up OK I will aim to use that bull for 3 years and then move on. I see your point, you are not after over the top performance more reliability in the traits you are after.

Ken


Why not breed them all to one sire and then take those daughters to another single sire. Makes for far more consistancy. I think it's mostly the purebred breeders seeking the "over the top" sires, hoping they can reproduce for bigger dollars.


If that single sire doesn't produce what I am after I have all my eggs in the one basket. Might be worth considering just doing one round of AI and then using a home grown bull to blend my cow families along with a bit of in breeding. Might be something I have overlooked with aiming to get 100% AI bred, would make life a lot simpler.

The reason I have tried to get 100 % AI bred come to think of it was that calves born to unproven homebred sires did not get numbers against them for many traits until they were measured and recorded and even then there would be gaps in their figures in sale catalogues. With changes in calculating EBV's and the use of genomics those gaps are now all filled in. My reasoning might be a bit shallow however when selling in a multivendor sale you are competing against the next breeder for the available money so physical appearance and the appearance of the catalogue do count. I now sell in partnerships with another local breeder who has very similar views to me and we work together very well and don't compete.

Ken


Dave, I like what Ken said.
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Re: A question for commercial guys.

Postby gizmom » Sat Jan 13, 2018 9:01 am

We use different AI sires yet if you look through our pedigrees your going to find a genetic pattern. It is possible to use a large number of AI sires as long as you stick to your genetic plan. We AI everything one time then turn the bulls in. We use four bulls all are home raised, but one was purchased as an embryo so I can’t take credit for breeding him just for raising him.

Ken we have found doing the dna test on all our bulls improves the gap between the AI group and natural service sired group.

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Re: A question for commercial guys.

Postby gcreekrch » Sat Jan 13, 2018 10:16 am

wbvs58 wrote:
gcreekrch wrote:
wbvs58 wrote:My aim is to use 3 or 4 AI bulls with the attributes I am after and if their calves are shaping up OK I will aim to use that bull for 3 years and then move on. I see your point, you are not after over the top performance more reliability in the traits you are after.

Ken


Why not breed them all to one sire and then take those daughters to another single sire. Makes for far more consistancy. I think it's mostly the purebred breeders seeking the "over the top" sires, hoping they can reproduce for bigger dollars.


If that single sire doesn't produce what I am after I have all my eggs in the one basket. Might be worth considering just doing one round of AI and then using a home grown bull to blend my cow families along with a bit of in breeding. Might be something I have overlooked with aiming to get 100% AI bred, would make life a lot simpler.

The reason I have tried to get 100 % AI bred come to think of it was that calves born to unproven homebred sires did not get numbers against them for many traits until they were measured and recorded and even then there would be gaps in their figures in sale catalogues. With changes in calculating EBV's and the use of genomics those gaps are now all filled in. My reasoning might be a bit shallow however when selling in a multivendor sale you are competing against the next breeder for the available money so physical appearance and the appearance of the catalogue do count. I now sell in partnerships with another local breeder who has very similar views to me and we work together very well and don't compete.

Ken


I guess that is why you would really do intensive research before breeding. If you have 25 cows or less, I see no reason to breed them to multiple sires. Bigger herds, yes.

Eggs in several baskets can fall and break too.

Interesting the response considering the title of the thread........ :D
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Re: A question for commercial guys.

Postby Stocker Steve » Sat Jan 13, 2018 2:24 pm

The big trendy bull studs pen their sale prospects by AI sire, so you can see how they compare.
The big trendy pull studs feel they need to switch to new AI studs every couple years to stay ahead of the pack.
Not my kind of deal, but others are happy to pay up.

It will be interesting how the bull market shifts with the DNA testing.
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Re: A question for commercial guys.

Postby wbvs58 » Sat Jan 13, 2018 4:37 pm

gizmom wrote:We use different AI sires yet if you look through our pedigrees your going to find a genetic pattern. It is possible to use a large number of AI sires as long as you stick to your genetic plan. We AI everything one time then turn the bulls in. We use four bulls all are home raised, but one was purchased as an embryo so I can’t take credit for breeding him just for raising him.

Ken we have found doing the dna test on all our bulls improves the gap between the AI group and natural service sired group.

Gizmom


Yes Gizmon, I have been using it quiet a bit and the good thing about it is the figures get recalculated and updated as more information on the genetic markers becomes available or any other data recorded with each run of what we call breedplan every 2 weeks with the new single step calculations.

Creek, it just goes to show those producing the bulls are taking note of what the end user is looking for.

Ken
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Re: A question for commercial guys.

Postby gcreekrch » Sat Jan 13, 2018 11:48 pm

wbvs58 wrote:
gizmom wrote:We use different AI sires yet if you look through our pedigrees your going to find a genetic pattern. It is possible to use a large number of AI sires as long as you stick to your genetic plan. We AI everything one time then turn the bulls in. We use four bulls all are home raised, but one was purchased as an embryo so I can’t take credit for breeding him just for raising him.

Ken we have found doing the dna test on all our bulls improves the gap between the AI group and natural service sired group.

Gizmom


Yes Gizmon, I have been using it quiet a bit and the good thing about it is the figures get recalculated and updated as more information on the genetic markers becomes available or any other data recorded with each run of what we call breedplan every 2 weeks with the new single step calculations.

Creek, it just goes to show those producing the bulls are taking note of what the end user is looking for.

Ken


Can we change that to "some"? The show ring still plays a large influence.
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Re: A question for commercial guys.

Postby R V » Sun Jan 14, 2018 2:40 am

Very good discussion, I am trying to find more line bred maternal lines that work on fescue and then am planning on purchasing terminal type bulls as my herd grows larger.

I would also like to purchase a few purebred Charolais cows. If anyone knows of a good elderly Charolais breeder (Breeds good functional cows that are raised on fescue.)that is thinking about getting out of the business or downsizing, I would be interested. Please send me a pm.
Thanks!
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Re: A question for commercial guys.

Postby Jake » Tue Jan 16, 2018 9:44 am

If a person is mismatching genetics and doesn't have some semblance of a plan of where they want their herd to be I"m not going to waste my time stepping on their place. Give me the guy using 2 bulls not the guy using 20+
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Re: A question for commercial guys.

Postby Lazy M » Tue Jan 16, 2018 9:11 pm

This may sound stupid, but for a herd bull, I could honestly care less. The direction that I'm trying to go with my commercial herd is to ai my top females once, using maternal oriented bulls, with a goal of getting all replacements from this group. I'm transitioning all of my herd bulls to strictly terminal types. With that being said, I'm only interested in finding great individual performers for herd bulls (actual and epd) that will sire heavy weaned calves.
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Re: A question for commercial guys.

Postby gcreekrch » Tue Jan 16, 2018 10:55 pm

Lazy M wrote:This may sound stupid, but for a herd bull, I could honestly care less. The direction that I'm trying to go with my commercial herd is to ai my top females once, using maternal oriented bulls, with a goal of getting all replacements from this group. I'm transitioning all of my herd bulls to strictly terminal types. With that being said, I'm only interested in finding great individual performers for herd bulls (actual and epd) that will sire heavy weaned calves.


Are you AI ing all your cows to the same bull for consistancy though?
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Re: A question for commercial guys.

Postby Lazy M » Tue Jan 16, 2018 11:38 pm

gcreekrch wrote:
Lazy M wrote:This may sound stupid, but for a herd bull, I could honestly care less. The direction that I'm trying to go with my commercial herd is to ai my top females once, using maternal oriented bulls, with a goal of getting all replacements from this group. I'm transitioning all of my herd bulls to strictly terminal types. With that being said, I'm only interested in finding great individual performers for herd bulls (actual and epd) that will sire heavy weaned calves.


Are you AI ing all your cows to the same bull for consistancy though?

For the last 3 years I've used the same 2 bulls (one for heifers, one for cows). This spring I plan to use a different bull, but of the same type.
I also have a smaller fall calving herd. I ai'ed a portion of these cows to a different, more performance-based bull, because I'd like to start raising my own terminal herd bulls, too.
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Re: A question for commercial guys.

Postby mrvictordomino » Wed Jan 17, 2018 12:02 am

Ebenezer wrote:
Bright Raven wrote:Dave,

This is a good question. Breeding and genetics are siblings but they look entirely different. That would take a whole day to dissect. But it is the premise for my brief answer.

Breeders fundamentally strive to isolate the genetic pool of a breed and reduce diversity. Thus, obtain uniformity and consistency.

However, to maintain a healthy gene pool for long periods of time, diversity is essential.

If you consider a natural population, in courses like speciation, population dynamics and graduate level evolutionary biology, the most undesirable factor for the survival of a species is stagnation of the gene pool.

I think having both is good for the domestic well being of cattle.

Not sure that this is all proven but based on theory. This one, especially:
However, to maintain a healthy gene pool for long periods of time, diversity is essential.

Sewell's experiment ran for, what, 20 years with a closed population? Most closed populations can be maintained by phenotypic selection once a base is established and the breeder recognizes the type he is going to get from those animals. The theory of population crash is over exaggerated and yet in the initial years I would expect 85% removal of potential lines in a linebreeding effort. Not total loss but recognization that a close population will not survive in that particular gene pool.

Natural populations allow death and environment to take out extremes. Nobody measures output on wild populations. Nobody controls wandering males in wild populations. Not a great parallel for me.

Good for a commercial breeder: the crossing of the most intensely linebred bred for specific purposes for the most hybrid vigor and the most potential profit. Look at your competitors: broilers, hogs, sheep. Maternal lines crossed over with terminal sires for all calves headed to slaughter. Beef folks still are on the "do all" model and losing ground because of it.

Just an opinion knowing that few will ever buckle down and breed their cattle for the long term good.

Good post Ebenezer, and very true.
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