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A question for commercial guys.

Posted: Thu Jan 11, 2018 10:30 pm
by gcreekrch
Would you rather buy bulls from a breeder that uses their own genetics breeding back into their herd or someone who breeds 30 cows to 29 different AI bulls?

IMO it's kinda hard to get much consistency when it's like picking wildflowers.

I do realize there is a point...........

Re: A question for commercial guys.

Posted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 7:17 am
by Post Oak
If it was a breeder who had been at it a long time using his own genetics and I had seen positive results from other people, I wouldn’t hesitate to use their genetics. There is a Hereford breeder in my state that uses his own genetics and a lot of commercial people use his bulls on their black cows. I like Ohlde bulls, but I don’t AI and don’t have enough money to buy one from Ohlde direct, so I buy bulls from a local breeder who has bulls AI sired by Ohlde bulls.

Re: A question for commercial guys.

Posted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 7:40 am
by Bright Raven
Dave,

This is a good question. Breeding and genetics are siblings but they look entirely different. That would take a whole day to dissect. But it is the premise for my brief answer.

Breeders fundamentally strive to isolate the genetic pool of a breed and reduce diversity. Thus, obtain uniformity and consistency.

However, to maintain a healthy gene pool for long periods of time, diversity is essential.

If you consider a natural population, in courses like speciation, population dynamics and graduate level evolutionary biology, the most undesirable factor for the survival of a species is stagnation of the gene pool.

I think having both is good for the domestic well being of cattle.

Re: A question for commercial guys.

Posted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 9:51 am
by gcreekrch
Bright Raven wrote:Dave,

This is a good question. Breeding and genetics are siblings but they look entirely different. That would take a whole day to dissect. But it is the premise for my brief answer.

Breeders fundamentally strive to isolate the genetic pool of a breed and reduce diversity. Thus, obtain uniformity and consistency.

However, to maintain a healthy gene pool for long periods of time, diversity is essential.

If you consider a natural population, in courses like speciation, population dynamics and graduate level evolutionary biology, the most undesirable factor for the survival of a species is stagnation of the gene pool.

I think having both is good for the domestic well being of cattle.



Isn't that is what's happening when hundreds are AIing to the latest bull of the year or very proven AI sires?

i have bought from a breeder for many years. A lot of his bulls have a hillbilly family tree pedigree but you can buy consistancy and unimformity.

My post refers to a catalog I recieved a couple of years ago. The seller had 30 bulls in it and they had 29 different sires. If I was wanting consistancy this wouldn't be a place for me to look as I prefer strings of 1/2 or 3/4 brothers to acchieve that.

Re: A question for commercial guys.

Posted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 10:00 am
by Randi
gcreekrch wrote:Would you rather buy bulls from a breeder that uses their own genetics breeding back into their herd or someone who breeds 30 cows to 29 different AI bulls?

IMO it's kinda hard to get much consistency when it's like picking wildflowers.

I do realize there is a point...........


That's a two edged sword IMO. Consistency is important, and if they are using their own genetics back in their herd, that shows that they are confident with their own cattle. However, at some point, I would want to add some different bloodlines into my own herd, which may not be happening if they are stuck using the same thing over and over.

OTOH, I don't think I'd have a lot of confidence buying from someone that doesn't seem to have a plan....breeding to many different AI sires.

I think that there should be some sort of happy medium. Using your own genetics, but not being afraid to introduce new genetics would give a much nicer offering, while still maintaining a lot of consistency. And as far as consistency goes....If I am looking for Terminal bulls, Maternal bulls, Heifer bulls....how much consistency should there be?

Re: A question for commercial guys.

Posted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 10:02 am
by Bright Raven
gcreekrch wrote:
Bright Raven wrote:Dave,

This is a good question. Breeding and genetics are siblings but they look entirely different. That would take a whole day to dissect. But it is the premise for my brief answer.

Breeders fundamentally strive to isolate the genetic pool of a breed and reduce diversity. Thus, obtain uniformity and consistency.

However, to maintain a healthy gene pool for long periods of time, diversity is essential.

If you consider a natural population, in courses like speciation, population dynamics and graduate level evolutionary biology, the most undesirable factor for the survival of a species is stagnation of the gene pool.

I think having both is good for the domestic well being of cattle.



Isn't that is what's happening when hundreds are AIing to the latest bull of the year or very proven AI sires?

i have bought from a breeder for many years. A lot of his bulls have a hillbilly family tree pedigree but you can buy consistancy and unimformity.

My post refers to a catalog I recieved a couple of years ago. The seller had 30 bulls in it and they had 29 different sires. If I was wanting consistancy this wouldn't be a place for me to look as I prefer strings of 1/2 or 3/4 brothers to acchieve that.


Understand.

Every catalog I get has those characteristics. Pedigree sells.

You made a point. The stud bulls are mostly bulls going back to the heralded Sires of a breed. That does diminish diversify.

Re: A question for commercial guys.

Posted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 10:10 am
by gcreekrch
Randi wrote:
gcreekrch wrote:Would you rather buy bulls from a breeder that uses their own genetics breeding back into their herd or someone who breeds 30 cows to 29 different AI bulls?

IMO it's kinda hard to get much consistency when it's like picking wildflowers.

I do realize there is a point...........


That's a two edged sword IMO. Consistency is important, and if they are using their own genetics back in their herd, that shows that they are confident with their own cattle. However, at some point, I would want to add some different bloodlines into my own herd, which may not be happening if they are stuck using the same thing over and over.

OTOH, I don't think I'd have a lot of confidence buying from someone that doesn't seem to have a plan....breeding to many different AI sires.

I think that there should be some sort of happy medium. Using your own genetics, but not being afraid to introduce new genetics would give a much nicer offering, while still maintaining a lot of consistency. And as far as consistency goes....If I am looking for Terminal bulls, Maternal bulls, Heifer bulls....how much consistency should there be?


I am with you on introducing the right new blood at times. Just not every time.

The heifer bulls I told you about came from a herd of 350 cows. When I asked for 70 lb birthweights in the bulls and also in their parents for some cowboy predictability they asked how mmany generations back as the herd has been in the family for over 50 years and the records were available.

Re: A question for commercial guys.

Posted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 10:44 am
by Ebenezer
Bright Raven wrote:Dave,

This is a good question. Breeding and genetics are siblings but they look entirely different. That would take a whole day to dissect. But it is the premise for my brief answer.

Breeders fundamentally strive to isolate the genetic pool of a breed and reduce diversity. Thus, obtain uniformity and consistency.

However, to maintain a healthy gene pool for long periods of time, diversity is essential.

If you consider a natural population, in courses like speciation, population dynamics and graduate level evolutionary biology, the most undesirable factor for the survival of a species is stagnation of the gene pool.

I think having both is good for the domestic well being of cattle.

Not sure that this is all proven but based on theory. This one, especially:
However, to maintain a healthy gene pool for long periods of time, diversity is essential.

Sewell's experiment ran for, what, 20 years with a closed population? Most closed populations can be maintained by phenotypic selection once a base is established and the breeder recognizes the type he is going to get from those animals. The theory of population crash is over exaggerated and yet in the initial years I would expect 85% removal of potential lines in a linebreeding effort. Not total loss but recognization that a close population will not survive in that particular gene pool.

Natural populations allow death and environment to take out extremes. Nobody measures output on wild populations. Nobody controls wandering males in wild populations. Not a great parallel for me.

Good for a commercial breeder: the crossing of the most intensely linebred bred for specific purposes for the most hybrid vigor and the most potential profit. Look at your competitors: broilers, hogs, sheep. Maternal lines crossed over with terminal sires for all calves headed to slaughter. Beef folks still are on the "do all" model and losing ground because of it.

Just an opinion knowing that few will ever buckle down and breed their cattle for the long term good. Thanks.

Re: A question for commercial guys.

Posted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 10:50 am
by Bright Raven
Ebenezer wrote:
Bright Raven wrote:Dave,

This is a good question. Breeding and genetics are siblings but they look entirely different. That would take a whole day to dissect. But it is the premise for my brief answer.

Breeders fundamentally strive to isolate the genetic pool of a breed and reduce diversity. Thus, obtain uniformity and consistency.

However, to maintain a healthy gene pool for long periods of time, diversity is essential.

If you consider a natural population, in courses like speciation, population dynamics and graduate level evolutionary biology, the most undesirable factor for the survival of a species is stagnation of the gene pool.

I think having both is good for the domestic well being of cattle.

Not sure that this is all proven but based on theory. This one, especially:
However, to maintain a healthy gene pool for long periods of time, diversity is essential.

Sewell's experiment ran for, what, 20 years with a closed population? Most closed populations can be maintained by phenotypic selection once a base is established and the breeder recognizes the type he is going to get from those animals. The theory of population crash is over exaggerated and yet in the initial years I would expect 85% removal of potential lines in a linebreeding effort. Not total loss but recognization that a close population will not survive in that particular gene pool.

Natural populations allow death and environment to take out extremes. Nobody measures output on wild populations. Nobody controls wandering males in wild populations. Not a great parallel for me.

Good for a commercial breeder: the crossing of the most intensely linebred bred for specific purposes for the most hybrid vigor and the most potential profit. Look at your competitors: broilers, hogs, sheep. Maternal lines crossed over with terminal sires for all calves headed to slaughter. Beef folks still are on the "do all" model and losing ground because of it.

Just an opinion knowing that few will ever buckle down and breed their cattle for the long term good. Thanks.


Yes sir. The comparison of natural populations with breeding domestic populations presents some difficulties.

Your last sentence is a real truth. My comment on it is: that the freedom to pursue cattle breeding how ever you want is more important than the merit of prescribed breeding methods.

Re: A question for commercial guys.

Posted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 3:15 pm
by Nesikep
Bright Raven wrote:Dave,

This is a good question. Breeding and genetics are siblings but they look entirely different. That would take a whole day to dissect. But it is the premise for my brief answer.

Breeders fundamentally strive to isolate the genetic pool of a breed and reduce diversity. Thus, obtain uniformity and consistency.

However, to maintain a healthy gene pool for long periods of time, diversity is essential.

If you consider a natural population, in courses like speciation, population dynamics and graduate level evolutionary biology, the most undesirable factor for the survival of a species is stagnation of the gene pool.

I think having both is good for the domestic well being of cattle.


But in nature bulls don't travel across the continent.. So what you have is many groups of similar individuals (linebred) but variation between groups (the diversity).. If one group gets weak, outside genetics will come in naturally.

While long term is to be seen, I'm really happy with the calves of my own bull right now... I don't plan on completely closing the herd, but have been finding that it's harder and harder to find a bull that doesn't bring me backward somewhere... Oh, and I think it's good to know the history, phenotype, etc off the 5 previous generations, in the actual production environment..

Re: A question for commercial guys.

Posted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 5:41 pm
by wbvs58
My aim is to use 3 or 4 AI bulls with the attributes I am after and if their calves are shaping up OK I will aim to use that bull for 3 years and then move on. I see your point, you are not after over the top performance more reliability in the traits you are after.

Ken

Re: A question for commercial guys.

Posted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 6:02 pm
by ALACOWMAN
gcreekrch wrote:Would you rather buy bulls from a breeder that uses their own genetics breeding back into their herd or someone who breeds 30 cows to 29 different AI bulls?

IMO it's kinda hard to get much consistency when it's like picking wildflowers.

I do realize there is a point...........

You know it's fifty- fifty contribution from each parent... There's Bulls out there that look like they contribute 80 % to the calf,, I like using those close knit type from the producer...

Re: A question for commercial guys.

Posted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 6:12 pm
by Caustic Burno
ALACOWMAN wrote:
gcreekrch wrote:Would you rather buy bulls from a breeder that uses their own genetics breeding back into their herd or someone who breeds 30 cows to 29 different AI bulls?

IMO it's kinda hard to get much consistency when it's like picking wildflowers.

I do realize there is a point...........

You know it's fifty- fifty contribution from each parent... There's Bulls out there that look like they contribute 80 % to the calf,, I like using those close knit type from the producer...


I want to shop where I get to see the sires progeny in the pasture not a catalog. Not that I am anti AI I just don’t keep up with all the numbers and research that goes into it.

Re: A question for commercial guys.

Posted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 7:17 pm
by gcreekrch
wbvs58 wrote:My aim is to use 3 or 4 AI bulls with the attributes I am after and if their calves are shaping up OK I will aim to use that bull for 3 years and then move on. I see your point, you are not after over the top performance more reliability in the traits you are after.

Ken


Why not breed them all to one sire and then take those daughters to another single sire. Makes for far more consistancy. I think it's mostly the purebred breeders seeking the "over the top" sires, hoping they can reproduce for bigger dollars.

Re: A question for commercial guys.

Posted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 7:21 pm
by gcreekrch
Caustic Burno wrote:
ALACOWMAN wrote:
gcreekrch wrote:Would you rather buy bulls from a breeder that uses their own genetics breeding back into their herd or someone who breeds 30 cows to 29 different AI bulls?

IMO it's kinda hard to get much consistency when it's like picking wildflowers.

I do realize there is a point...........

You know it's fifty- fifty contribution from each parent... There's Bulls out there that look like they contribute 80 % to the calf,, I like using those close knit type from the producer...


I want to shop where I get to see the sires progeny in the pasture not a catalog. Not that I am anti AI I just don’t keep up with all the numbers and research that goes into it.


If I may quote a friend of mine....... "Give a cowman a bulls age, bw and current weight and he will know if the bull is worth pursuing."

IMO, EPDs are only as accurate as the numbers entered in the computer.