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Re: White on Angus

Posted: Tue Jun 05, 2018 5:55 pm
by elkwc
Jeanne - Simme Valley wrote:SOB - a little exaggerated IMHO
Breeders may have had registered cattle, but they did not have a clue about genetic traits. They were afraid people would think their registered cattle were fake. This was in Louisburg, Kansas. They would not "feed them out", because they would have to keep it around. I mean they literally hid the carcass. Believe what you want. It is fact.
People with commercial herds kept them, but just "assumed" a neighbors bull got in.


I know an Angus breeder in this area who had a few in the 60's and 70's and he put all the females in his commercial herd. The bull calves he steered and sold with his commercial calves. He had some Hereford cows and some other crosses and I don't remember anyone caring when they bought a bull from him.

Re: White on Angus

Posted: Fri Jul 13, 2018 5:51 pm
by VirginiaCattle
Prophet put a lot of white on the bellies and some solid white udders in my herd.

My Deer Valley All In cows have small bit of white on their udders.

Two of my Prophet x QH Manning crosses have white switches and white bellies all the way.

Re: White on Angus

Posted: Fri Jul 13, 2018 6:48 pm
by Jeanne - Simme Valley
VirginiaCattle wrote:Prophet put a lot of white on the bellies and some solid whute udders in my herd.

My Deer Valley All In cows have small bit of white on ther udders.

Two of my Prophet x QH Manning crosses have white switches and white bellies all the way.

So, they can't be registered - correct?

Re: White on Angus

Posted: Fri Jul 13, 2018 7:07 pm
by Air gator
Jeanne,
For the ones that have white bellies can you flip them over and register them with the American Simmental Association? Or, must they be registered with the AAA to be recognized? Just curious how that works.

Re: White on Angus

Posted: Fri Jul 13, 2018 8:32 pm
by Chocolate Cow2
SOB-this is what Ebeneezer meant about black shoe polish....
DENVER, Feb, 26— It is downright embarrassing.

Big Mac, the 1972 Grand Champion Steer of Denver's prestigious National Western Stock Show, may be a fake.

The animal himself is real. He is about 1,200 pounds of beef residing temporarily in a barn in suburban Littleton and chewing his way through 30 pounds of grain a day while state and stock show officials try to figure out what happened.

The problem is that Big Mac, winner of two major prizes at the stock show in January, was certified as an Angus steer raised in Iowa and shown in Denver for the first time.

Now it appears that he is not a black Angus at all but instead a black‐dyed white Charolais named Jeep. Jeep was raised in Colorado and has been shown at a number of other shows.

With a name like Big Mac, the steer drew the attention of several owners of McDonald's hamburger stands in Colorado. The chain features a hamburger called the Big Mac.

Continue reading the main story
In spirited bidding with Denver's Brown Palace Hotel, the McDonald's owners won the animal for $11.40 a pound, or $14,250, the highest price ever paid in the stock show's 66‐year history.

But the Colorado Board of Stock Inspection is holding up the money awarded to Rex Miller, 16 years old, son of Mr. and Mrs. Eldon Miller of Alta, Iowa, until the matter of Big Mac's identity is settled. It was young Miller who showed the animal at the National Western.

Charolais is a Swiss cattle breed recently gaining wide acceptance. among Western cattlemen but not accepted for competition at the National Western, which shows only Herefords, Angus and shorthorns. Some of the breeds may be mixed a bit, but the sire of the steer must be from one of those three.

Hair Is White

Big Mac now has his facial fur clipped short, and in the barns of Carl Reed, the owner of six McDonald's hamburger stands, his fur is growing in white.

Even stronger evidence is the “Lazy J, Lazy Y connected” brand burned into the animal's flank.

That is the brand of the Skylark Ranch in Parsball, Colo., according to Earl Brown, state brand commissioner.

Mr. and Mrs. Ray Daves of Limon, Colo., said they bought Jeep, a Charolais calf, from Skylark Ranch in November, 1970.

Mrs. Daves said her son, Kirk, 18, attended the National Western and recognized Big Mac as Jeep, even though he had been dyed black.

“Once you get to know an animal, you can recognize it anywhere,” Mrs. Daves said in a telephone interview. She said that although many people think all cattle look alike, they have distinct features and personalities. She said Jeep would cry real tears “if you got mad at him and gave him a swat.”

Eighth in Kansas City

She said Jeep had been shown in two county fairs in Colorado and placed eighth in the American Royal Stock Show in Kansas City last October. After that, she said, the animal was sold to an Iowa man.

Stock show officials said the Iowa man had reported that Jeep had died of “hardware sickness,” which comes from eating metal, particularly chunks of barbed wire fencing.

Rex Miller's father, reached by telephone, declined to comment on the matter.

Dyeing cattle, a common practice until this incident happened, has now been banned by stock show officials, who could not be reached for comment.

Mr. Reed said the owners of 12 of 28 McDonald's restaurants in Colorado had decided to bid for Big Mac and had hoped to show him at their restaurants to promote business.

“We had our meat supplier hid on it and told him to buy it no matter what the cost,” Mr. Reed said. “If they hadn't named it Big Mac we never would have thought of it.

“Next time I don't care if they name it McDonald's Special, we're not bidding.”

Mr. Brawn, the brand commissioner, said his attention was called to the matter when the animal hair began to look a little white at the roots.

“It was like a blonde woman who had stayed at the stock show too long,” he said.

Mr. Brown said the incident might clear up some questionable practices that had grown up around the showing of stock.

He added: “If a man is able to judge animals in a show of this magnitude, he should be able to tell an Angus from a Charolais.”

He said he hoped to have the matter settled in the next few weeks, though there is still talk of lawsuits.

Re: White on Angus

Posted: Fri Jul 13, 2018 9:01 pm
by Jeanne - Simme Valley
Air gator wrote:Jeanne,
For the ones that have white bellies can you flip them over and register them with the American Simmental Association? Or, must they be registered with the AAA to be recognized? Just curious how that works.

LOL - Hopefully you are joking - or I don't understand the pedigree. Prophet, All In & QH are all Angus sires. Why would you be able to register them as a Simmental?
Edit: Cattle can only be registered thru ASA if they are sired by a reg. Simmental or the dam is registered Simmental. If a Simmental is bred with/to an Angus, the Angus does not have to be registered. If the sire or dam is a registered Angus bred to Simmental, then they are "called" SimAngus.

Re: White on Angus

Posted: Fri Jul 13, 2018 9:44 pm
by VirginiaCattle
Jeanne - Simme Valley wrote:
VirginiaCattle wrote:Prophet put a lot of white on the bellies and some solid whute udders in my herd.

My Deer Valley All In cows have small bit of white on ther udders.

Two of my Prophet x QH Manning crosses have white switches and white bellies all the way.

So, they can't be registered - correct?


I don't have registered cattle.

As I understand it, they could be registered at ASA though. All those bulls would be in their database already and they'll take your money.

Re: White on Angus

Posted: Sat Jul 14, 2018 5:09 am
by Jeanne - Simme Valley
Sorry, but you don't have a clue what you are talking about. No, the offspring of those bulls cannot be registered as Simmentals unless the dam is a registered Simmental.
When you said you had offspring that had white bellies "all the way", I was referring to the fact that you could not register them in the AAA - but I thought you had registered Angus cows the way you talked. Who cares if the bulls throw white on non-registered cows - they could have anything in their background.

Re: White on Angus

Posted: Sat Jul 14, 2018 2:17 pm
by Ky hills
Jeanne - Simme Valley wrote:Sorry, but you don't have a clue what you are talking about. No, the offspring of those bulls cannot be registered as Simmentals unless the dam is a registered Simmental.
When you said you had offspring that had white bellies "all the way", I was referring to the fact that you could not register them in the AAA - but I thought you had registered Angus cows the way you talked. Who cares if the bulls throw white on non-registered cows - they could have anything in their background.


I'm in agreement with you that if the cattle are unregistered commercial cattle then the white on their bellies shouldn't make any difference at all. The only issue that I see is that it is very possible to have straight bred Angus herds that are not registered. Then while it would be of little to no consequence it would still cause concern as to the excess white cropping up from certain individuals. The situation likely could never gain recognition because the cattle are unregistered and pedigrees unprovable.

Re: White on Angus

Posted: Sat Jul 14, 2018 2:26 pm
by Ky hills
Chocolate Cow2 wrote:SOB-this is what Ebeneezer meant about black shoe polish....
DENVER, Feb, 26— It is downright embarrassing.

Big Mac, the 1972 Grand Champion Steer of Denver's prestigious National Western Stock Show, may be a fake.

The animal himself is real. He is about 1,200 pounds of beef residing temporarily in a barn in suburban Littleton and chewing his way through 30 pounds of grain a day while state and stock show officials try to figure out what happened.

The problem is that Big Mac, winner of two major prizes at the stock show in January, was certified as an Angus steer raised in Iowa and shown in Denver for the first time.

Now it appears that he is not a black Angus at all but instead a black‐dyed white Charolais named Jeep. Jeep was raised in Colorado and has been shown at a number of other shows.

With a name like Big Mac, the steer drew the attention of several owners of McDonald's hamburger stands in Colorado. The chain features a hamburger called the Big Mac.

Continue reading the main story
In spirited bidding with Denver's Brown Palace Hotel, the McDonald's owners won the animal for $11.40 a pound, or $14,250, the highest price ever paid in the stock show's 66‐year history.

But the Colorado Board of Stock Inspection is holding up the money awarded to Rex Miller, 16 years old, son of Mr. and Mrs. Eldon Miller of Alta, Iowa, until the matter of Big Mac's identity is settled. It was young Miller who showed the animal at the National Western.

Charolais is a Swiss cattle breed recently gaining wide acceptance. among Western cattlemen but not accepted for competition at the National Western, which shows only Herefords, Angus and shorthorns. Some of the breeds may be mixed a bit, but the sire of the steer must be from one of those three.

Hair Is White

Big Mac now has his facial fur clipped short, and in the barns of Carl Reed, the owner of six McDonald's hamburger stands, his fur is growing in white.

Even stronger evidence is the “Lazy J, Lazy Y connected” brand burned into the animal's flank.

That is the brand of the Skylark Ranch in Parsball, Colo., according to Earl Brown, state brand commissioner.

Mr. and Mrs. Ray Daves of Limon, Colo., said they bought Jeep, a Charolais calf, from Skylark Ranch in November, 1970.

Mrs. Daves said her son, Kirk, 18, attended the National Western and recognized Big Mac as Jeep, even though he had been dyed black.

“Once you get to know an animal, you can recognize it anywhere,” Mrs. Daves said in a telephone interview. She said that although many people think all cattle look alike, they have distinct features and personalities. She said Jeep would cry real tears “if you got mad at him and gave him a swat.”

Eighth in Kansas City

She said Jeep had been shown in two county fairs in Colorado and placed eighth in the American Royal Stock Show in Kansas City last October. After that, she said, the animal was sold to an Iowa man.

Stock show officials said the Iowa man had reported that Jeep had died of “hardware sickness,” which comes from eating metal, particularly chunks of barbed wire fencing.

Rex Miller's father, reached by telephone, declined to comment on the matter.

Dyeing cattle, a common practice until this incident happened, has now been banned by stock show officials, who could not be reached for comment.

Mr. Reed said the owners of 12 of 28 McDonald's restaurants in Colorado had decided to bid for Big Mac and had hoped to show him at their restaurants to promote business.

“We had our meat supplier hid on it and told him to buy it no matter what the cost,” Mr. Reed said. “If they hadn't named it Big Mac we never would have thought of it.

“Next time I don't care if they name it McDonald's Special, we're not bidding.”

Mr. Brawn, the brand commissioner, said his attention was called to the matter when the animal hair began to look a little white at the roots.

“It was like a blonde woman who had stayed at the stock show too long,” he said.

Mr. Brown said the incident might clear up some questionable practices that had grown up around the showing of stock.

He added: “If a man is able to judge animals in a show of this magnitude, he should be able to tell an Angus from a Charolais.”

He said he hoped to have the matter settled in the next few weeks, though there is still talk of lawsuits.


Just pointing out an insignificant error in the posted article, it doesn't affect the story. It lists Charolais as a Swiss breed, but Charolais are a French breed. Sorry but from my years with the breed just couldn't help but make the correction.

Re: White on Angus

Posted: Sat Jul 14, 2018 4:13 pm
by Jeanne - Simme Valley
Back in 1972 Charolais & Simmental were both getting popular. Simmies are from Switzerland - from the Simme Valley in Switzerland!

Re: White on Angus

Posted: Sat Jul 14, 2018 5:36 pm
by Chocolate Cow2
Ky hills, I saw that too. 1972. A different time. No Snopes. No Wikipedia. A lot of days I wish it was still 1972.

Re: White on Angus

Posted: Sat Jul 14, 2018 9:14 pm
by VirginiaCattle
Jeanne - Simme Valley wrote:Sorry, but you don't have a clue what you are talking about. No, the offspring of those bulls cannot be registered as Simmentals unless the dam is a registered Simmental.
When you said you had offspring that had white bellies "all the way", I was referring to the fact that you could not register them in the AAA - but I thought you had registered Angus cows the way you talked. Who cares if the bulls throw white on non-registered cows - they could have anything in their background.


They aren't registered as a simmental, but the simmental database will record them.

Re: White on Angus

Posted: Sat Jul 14, 2018 11:08 pm
by elkwc
Jeanne - Simme Valley wrote:Sorry, but you don't have a clue what you are talking about. No, the offspring of those bulls cannot be registered as Simmentals unless the dam is a registered Simmental.
When you said you had offspring that had white bellies "all the way", I was referring to the fact that you could not register them in the AAA - but I thought you had registered Angus cows the way you talked. Who cares if the bulls throw white on non-registered cows - they could have anything in their background.


Jeanne the reason many commercial breeders don't want white scattered around on cattle is around here buyers like to have them cut off and then they get docked heavy. That is the main reason to use an Angus bull. For the solid black color unless you are trying to raise baldies. I either tell them no cuts or if one has a lot of color I feel will hurt him bad we just keep and feed him. Someone in the family always wants beef. Any white spot on the side, flanks, ect and some buyers will ask to have them cut off. I have found if you say no cuts the group still sells as well. They just try to get a bargain if they can.

Re: White on Angus

Posted: Sun Jul 15, 2018 4:41 am
by Jeanne - Simme Valley
elkwc - I totally understand being docked! That's why ALL my steers sell private treaty direct to a feedlot - sight unseen. That dock for color is just "because they can" - not because the cattle are inferior.
But, I was referring to the fact that an Angus bull bred to "black" cows, does not mean the white is coming from the bull, the COW might be the contributor.
But, I also understand the bull may also be a white carrier (more white than acceptable from an Angus). No one wants to admit that there MAY be some "diluted genes" in the gene pool!

VA Ctl - ASA will record a REGISTERED animal as a "foundation" animal. IE - you have a reg. Angus bull (or any registered breed) that you want to use in an upgrading/crossbreeding program with your registered Simmental cows - or - you have a reg. Angus (or any breed) cow and you want to breed to a reg. Simm. bull, so you can registered the offspring. This is so that the data is more accurate for the offspring.
It costs $25 to add a REGISTERED other breed animal into the data base - the last I knew.