Jersey Genetics? HELP!!!

For the dairy folks and/or beef folks with questions about udders, milk and mastitis.
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Re: Jersey Genetics? HELP!!!

Postby vclavin » Fri Mar 02, 2012 6:27 pm

regolith wrote:I can only honestly recommend bulls I've used myself, and of those Hermann's Red Ribbon - I love those girls, they're larger framed, decent udders and seem to get better every year - and Hawthorn Grove Zeus with the qualification that my good Zeus heifers (they are 2 years old this year, the RRs are 3 and 4 years) are crossbreds and the one pure Jersey I had was a little too frail for my liking. He is a very small-statured, neat uddered bull.
The heifer I posted in the 'baby bulls' thread the other day is sired by Tahau Northern Lights, I think I've got two to calve for the first time next year. I'm hoping he will be good, proof again shows him very small statured, neat udders and good temperament.

I can let you know my what I think of their current 'production and type' NZ proof if you're loooking at any other bulls from Ambreed or LIC. So far as temperament and adaptability goes I avoid anything with a minus score and prefer to pick from bulls that are 0.2 or over. For udders, as high as possible, minimum about .4. Red Ribbon and Zeus both have scores 0.9 or over. Avoid Manhatten if you can (yes, he's a good bull but not consistent and there are genetic issues) most of his sons have OM or Man as their middle name, Okura Lika Murmur is one to watch for the future, still young but his proof is strong in most areas.

Thanks, I'll have to see what this guy has in his tank. I do prefer the smaller/old time Jersey but do need abilty to perform in Northern Missouri. It's good to know what to stay away from as it is to know what to use.
Supposedly the girls dams (which were heifers) gave 50lbs milk a day and were on grass with 26lbs grain a day. That's all I know about them, except they are supposed to be pure Jersey but no proof of that.
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Re: Jersey Genetics? HELP!!!

Postby cow pollinater » Fri Mar 02, 2012 7:08 pm

Honestly, for what you want them to do for you, NZ genetics may well be a really good choice if you have easy access to it and the price is right. They are promoting cattle that eat grass and turn it into milk and everything I've mentioned is proven on modern dairies feeding TMR(total mixed ration). That would also make your genetic decisions easier in future generations as outcrossing would be really easy using popular US genetics.
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Re: Jersey Genetics? HELP!!!

Postby vclavin » Fri Mar 02, 2012 8:17 pm

cow pollinater wrote:Honestly, for what you want them to do for you, NZ genetics may well be a really good choice if you have easy access to it and the price is right. They are promoting cattle that eat grass and turn it into milk and everything I've mentioned is proven on modern dairies feeding TMR(total mixed ration). That would also make your genetic decisions easier in future generations as outcrossing would be really easy using popular US genetics.

What would you consider as a good price? Hopefully I can get sexed semen for females.
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Re: Jersey Genetics? HELP!!!

Postby regolith » Sat Mar 03, 2012 12:33 am

Red Ribbon is available $NZ8 within New Zealand, LIC owns him and have no idea how good he is. The brand new high index bulls I can get $15 - 20 usually, older bulls can be cheaper and if it were me, especially since you're only breeding three heifers, I'd be looking to the older bulls with lots of daughters and a highly reliable proof.
Cheapest sexed is about $60 up to $100 in this country. There's only a few bulls available sexed though, usually the most popular ones.
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Re: Jersey Genetics? HELP!!!

Postby Loch Valley Fold » Mon Mar 19, 2012 3:29 pm

Latola has been used here in Australia with pretty good results maybe look to either Australian or NZ for grassfed milk production. I think ASTOUND was a doing very well in the USA we have a few of his daughters & they were great well attached udders good teat placement, feet & legs. Another thing you check on is teat length you don't want cows with short teats milking machines need to be able to stay on & if your going to hand milk you definitely don't want to be using the 2 finger technique when milking
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Re: Jersey Genetics? HELP!!!

Postby regolith » Mon Mar 19, 2012 8:18 pm

New Zealand proofs don't include teat length - it's one thing that really annoys me that you have to use the bulls to find out that nearly every daughter has such short teats they're dificult to milk. So far I've only got caught out that way with one bull, but that's one too many.
CP, if you have access to converted (US) proofs for these bulls that include teat length could you let me know please? It's possible that the information is simply never recorded by the classifiers when they're assessing daughters, but it would be nice to have, even if it was only an ancestry-generated Breeding Value.

Farmers love Astound - called Fabulous in NZ. I think WWS were marketing him but maybe harder to obtain now. I was keen to give him a try if I could get hold of some. How do they go for temperament, I think I read somewhere that they were similar to Flower Powers?
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Re: Jersey Genetics? HELP!!!

Postby Loch Valley Fold » Tue Mar 20, 2012 12:33 am

Don't get me started on FlowerPower my Astounds are way superior than FlowerPower temperament wise they were perfect FP's had a tendency to stomp & kick while cupping up, for me that is a big no no some would come in kicking out at you as they walked up the platform couple were so hard to get back in calf we actually milked 1 for 2yrs before we finally got her bred in reality she should have went long before she did but she was my fathers favourite what can you do? they were a bit swaybacked.
Astounds were slightly taller really good udders very collapsible & not fleshy both teat placement & teat length were good same goes with their feet & legs they work well on grass based pasture dairies.
Flowerpower was very popular here in Aust, however we may have had bad luck with the ones we had but it was enough that I wouldn't use or recommend him if there were better bulls around.
Semex used to include teat length, placement & udder ligaments in their catalogs don't know if they still do but it is a handy tool when it comes to picking out the right bull for your herd.

Astound would be on of those bull I'd happily pay $$$ to have sitting in my tank
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Re: Jersey Genetics? HELP!!!

Postby regolith » Tue Mar 20, 2012 3:39 pm

that's why I didn't use Flower Power. got a calf to him last spring, cow came back from lease with her inside... I think I'd rather see her than some of the sires they came back in-calf to (Starlight/Jarmo I sold anything from those two bulls). I probably figured last time I was choosing bulls that Tahau Northern Lights did everything FP did with far better management traits.

Astound is in the back list of the 2009 WWS catalogue - I don't have a more recent one and have never seen a proof for him.
Semex do have teat length but not for NZ proven bulls - if those bulls had daughters in Aus or the US there might be a teat length BV available on their overseas proofs.
Did you ever use Valerian or Elton? I put some Elton into the herd this year, should see calves to him next spring.
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Re: Jersey Genetics? HELP!!!

Postby cow pollinater » Tue Mar 20, 2012 6:09 pm

regolith wrote:CP, if you have access to converted (US) proofs for these bulls that include teat length could you let me know please? ?


Let me know what specific bulls you're interested in and who carries them here in the US. Registation numbers are the best bet as I can search directly from the association if I can't find a proof from any major studs.
For what it's worth, another way to solve the teat length problem when you don't have the information on that trait is to really get nitpicky about somatic cell proofs. The cattle with teats so short that a machine won't stay on without slipping have bad scores regardless of their genetic makeup for that particular trait. Some cattle that have shorter teats are okay but the worst will show up really quick that way. :D
Over the years I've learned to watch even more closely the information that gets left out than the information that gets presented. :nod:

Edited to add: Teat length is fairly low on heritability so it's a good one to keep in mind over the course of years but please don't chase it at the expense of other traits that are more heritable and possibly more valuable... It's a good trait to average in over a long period of time. Use extremes when they also fit the rest of what you're trying to do but otherwise set your limit at mildly above average and let it get better with time.
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Re: Jersey Genetics? HELP!!!

Postby regolith » Tue Mar 20, 2012 9:10 pm

I'll keep that in mind re SCC. Teat length isn't something I want to chase, but it is an issue where the combination of wide front teats/short teats or even just short teats alone can render a heifer un-milkable for the first few days if not the whole of her first lactation. Did have five daughters to one bull and about four of them the cups would keep slipping off because there wasn't enough teat for them to sit on.
Is a bull code like 104015 =(Frostman) a registration number? That's how they're identified here.
For next year I'm looking at Firenze, Roscoe, Turbo (HolsteinFriesian) Murmur and Manhatten (Jersey) and all should be fine on teat length. Might change my mind on one or two of those... I sent plenty of straws back into storage after AI and only need a few straws of top indexing bulls to keep my herd BW average (and value) near the national average. I've got some Regal (306117) in storage and some PT Jersey who shouldn't be a problem if the dams/aunties/sisters are any indication. Regal is the only unknown factor - Murmur's half sisters in my herd all have long enough teats and I've milked several Manhatten daughters and the Danish Jersey bulls also in storage come with overseas proofs.
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Re: Jersey Genetics? HELP!!!

Postby Loch Valley Fold » Tue Mar 20, 2012 9:27 pm

No never tried Elton or Valerain but Valerian is my choice but is too closely related to a far few of our dairy cows. One young bull I did try was Sandblast (he is related to Tailboard) these should be calving shortly I was very lucky as the breeder contacted me to see if I would be interested in trying an unproven bull that the AI companies wouldn't pick up but he thought had a lot of potential. I shy away from NZ genetics ever since Manhatten was used so heavily & just about everything that came out of NZ had him as their sire. That is just a problem I don't want in my herd

Edited to add Astound can be viewed at the Genetics Australia site www.genaust.com.au follow the link to Jersey & click on Molly Brook Berretta Fabalous
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Re: Jersey Genetics? HELP!!!

Postby regolith » Tue Mar 20, 2012 9:37 pm

I've never had an answer from the lic/ambreed reps about Manhatten... whether I use him next year, I think it's a risk I'm prepared to take; I've still got 7 yr old daughters in the herd and some of their daughters. Both companies say they're confident the abnormalities won't show up in the next generation, I'd like to know how they know that if they don't even know what the abnormality is??
Possibly one good thing about genomics is that it might spread out the breeding a little - sires that haven't even got their daughter proof yet are being used as sires of sons, so maybe we'll get away from the Manhatten/Maunga/Nevvy bias that's happening right now (I don't use Nevvy sons either, the two daughters I've had were extremely nervous).
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Re: Jersey Genetics? HELP!!!

Postby regolith » Tue Mar 20, 2012 9:47 pm

got that link, thanks. I take it you haven't had issues with daughter fertility?
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Re: Jersey Genetics? HELP!!!

Postby vclavin » Mon Mar 26, 2012 12:24 pm

Oh My!! Choosing a sire for my Jersey girls is not going to be easy . Not even sure if they are pure (supposed to be, but Dairy guy that bought them at a sale wasn't sure Jersey dams were bred to pure Jersey bulls)
As I have absolutely no idea as to pedigree. What would you feel safe to use on heifers? Grass based of course. Gentle dispositions a must. High milk not super necessary (dams gave 50lbs day ) exceptional cream would be great -lol. I think the shorter frame would be nice too. I'm game for ideas... not too many... gets confusing. Might add some insights about bulls daughters with suggestions. Thanks for all your help.
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Re: Jersey Genetics? HELP!!!

Postby vclavin » Thu Mar 29, 2012 5:48 pm

Deacon, Joskin, Zues, Aim, and Henry these are the sires in the dairy mans tank.
here's the link to the catalog :http://www.licnz.com/sire_catalogue2.cfm
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