thoughts on shock collars

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bigbull338
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thoughts on shock collars

Postby bigbull338 » Tue May 22, 2007 10:58 am

ive got a cow dog that loves to chase/work cattle.she goes out with me an chases them.the bottomline is she wont mind me when i call her off.an that in turn ticks me off.i wont have her chasing new cattle.so i pen her up when im out working.so im thinking bout training her with a shock collor not to chase or mess with the cows at all.give me your thoughts on shock collors.
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Postby dun » Tue May 22, 2007 11:00 am

Sounds more like it needs basic obedience then a shock collar. A shock collar is used to reinforce what they already know, not to teach them anything new.
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Postby bigbull338 » Tue May 22, 2007 11:06 am

dun wrote:Sounds more like it needs basic obedience then a shock collar. A shock collar is used to reinforce what they already know, not to teach them anything new.
dun she already knows she cant chase the cows.but she ignores me when i tell her no an call her off.she minds every1 but me.she thinks she dont have to mind me at all.an thats a prob.i wont allow her to mess the cows up.an if she messes 1 up shes had it.
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Postby Brute 23 » Tue May 22, 2007 11:50 am

You dont need a shock collar.

Other people can use the dog and call it off... just not you? Does the dog mind with other basic commands? Does it know any commands at all?

I think you need to go back to some basics with the dog like said above. For what ever reason the dog does not respect you for commands. Go back and try to re-establish the relationship. That is the real problem.

I am not a fan of shock collars at all. I think if you can't train a dog with out the collar than you won't know how to train the dog with the collar.
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Postby bigbull338 » Tue May 22, 2007 12:14 pm

Brute 23 wrote:You dont need a shock collar.

Other people can use the dog and call it off... just not you? Does the dog mind with other basic commands? Does it know any commands at all?

I think you need to go back to some basics with the dog like said above. For what ever reason the dog does not respect you for commands. Go back and try to re-establish the relationship. That is the real problem.

I am not a fan of shock collars at all. I think if you can't train a dog with out the collar than you won't know how to train the dog with the collar.
the shock collar is a last resort for the dog.she is very hardheaded an stubborn.she has it in her head that she dont have to ignore me.an that will get her sent down the road fast.but the family dont want me to get rid of the dog.
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Postby Brute 23 » Tue May 22, 2007 1:33 pm

Well you have to determine if the the dog is your family pet or a working dog?

With working dogs there are some that have to be culled due to mental capacity.

If it is a pet then you best bet is to break the dog completly from and and all animals.

But like I said... something is missing. If the dog will sit, load up, stay, come, ect... then it should stop for you also.

Try putting the dog on a long roping rope and riding around the cattle. Leave some distance so not to actually move the cows or get the dog in the position where it can't get away b/c it is tied.

GO out there and let the dog run with slack. Give your command to stop. If the dog doesn't stop... make it. Then release the dog to move. Then stop it again... and release it. If it gets where it is doing like you asked then praise the dog at the end. Try and be as consistant as possible with your commands even down to the tone of your voice.

Do it over and over. When you think the dog has it down try it in a confined area off the rope. If the dog stops then give it immediate gradification. IF not back to the rope.

Then go in a free range larger area and try it again with out the rope.

IF all is going well then you should be ready to try around the cows.
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Postby bigbull338 » Tue May 22, 2007 1:46 pm

Brute 23 wrote:Well you have to determine if the the dog is your family pet or a working dog?

With working dogs there are some that have to be culled due to mental capacity.

If it is a pet then you best bet is to break the dog completly from and and all animals.

But like I said... something is missing. If the dog will sit, load up, stay, come, ect... then it should stop for you also.

Try putting the dog on a long roping rope and riding around the cattle. Leave some distance so not to actually move the cows or get the dog in the position where it can't get away b/c it is tied.

GO out there and let the dog run with slack. Give your command to stop. If the dog doesn't stop... make it. Then release the dog to move. Then stop it again... and release it. If it gets where it is doing like you asked then praise the dog at the end. Try and be as consistant as possible with your commands even down to the tone of your voice.

Do it over and over. When you think the dog has it down try it in a confined area off the rope. If the dog stops then give it immediate gradification. IF not back to the rope.

Then go in a free range larger area and try it again with out the rope.

IF all is going well then you should be ready to try around the cows.
well she already has 2 strikes against her.an both of those strikes came from bouncing cattle off an through fences.back in the old days that wouldve gotten her a lead injection.an im tired of trying to call her off of cattle.so 1 more offense with the reg cattle an ill lite her up pretty good.but for the time being im locking her up.an not letting her go with me when i work around the cattle.
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Postby Dusty Britches » Tue May 22, 2007 2:26 pm

2 thoughts on this -

Brute is right - your dog doesn't respect you. Go back to basic commands in a controlled setting - fenced yard or on lead. Don't let the dog move without your permission. Here/come better be instant, without hestiation. All commands should be instant. Do not let anyone try to override your commands. (my husband used to do that - I'd say "here" and the dog would not listen, then, as I said it again, my husband would yell louder than me, overriding my voice.) Once she is solid on listening to you on lead, take her off. Get solid again before going to cattle/ work.

Have you contacted a professional trainer? That might be a good alternative before getting rid of a potentially good dog. The professional trainer I'm working with says cow dogs are way too sensitive to use e-collars. My hunting dog uses one, but not my cow dog.
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Postby bigbull338 » Tue May 22, 2007 3:51 pm

Dusty Britches wrote:2 thoughts on this -

Brute is right - your dog doesn't respect you. Go back to basic commands in a controlled setting - fenced yard or on lead. Don't let the dog move without your permission. Here/come better be instant, without hestiation. All commands should be instant. Do not let anyone try to override your commands. (my husband used to do that - I'd say "here" and the dog would not listen, then, as I said it again, my husband would yell louder than me, overriding my voice.) Once she is solid on listening to you on lead, take her off. Get solid again before going to cattle/ work.

Have you contacted a professional trainer? That might be a good alternative before getting rid of a potentially good dog. The professional trainer I'm working with says cow dogs are way too sensitive to use e-collars. My hunting dog uses one, but not my cow dog.
i dont think respect is her prob.i think she just has a mind of her own.an trys todo what she pleases around me.i dont want to have to cull her but i will if im pushed to it.i think a trainer would end up killing her.she is 4yrs old.
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Postby mdmdogs3 » Tue May 22, 2007 5:19 pm

bigbull338 wrote:i dont think respect is her prob.i think she just has a mind of her own.an trys todo what she pleases around me.

she thinks that she can do as she pleases around you -
i.e. she doesn't respect your authority to tell her that she can't do as she pleases

you need to re-establish your authority -
I'm not saying beating the dog but the dog needs to understand that you are the boss!

an e-collar can be a good tool but that is all that it is - a tool - no more than a long leash

instead of jumping ahead to a tool like an e-collar - you need to take 10 or 20 steps backward and work on the basics for a little bit
then gradually add a controlled environment - like 1 or 2 calm cows - not a whole herd -
that would be waaaayy too much fun and her brain would turn off again!
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Postby hillsdown » Tue May 22, 2007 7:37 pm

Big Bull I have used a shock collar and still do because it saves their lives (the dogs).Sometimes they just can't stay off the road so when that happens the collar goes on and when they wonder near the road they get a warning and then zapped.Works really well and when they forget it gets pulled out again and used again.
BUT shock collars do not work on smart dogs ie. Border Collies you put that collar on and they will sit and do nothing until it comes off.So in my opinion they are great for stupid dogs when training and reasoning doesn't sink in.They are also good for puppies to train to avoid dangerous situations but if the puppy is smart you can only use the collar once as they will always know when you put it on them what it is.

SO if you use a collar on your dog in question you will get one chance to train and correct the bad behavior.It sounds like a smart one and if you mess up it will know the next time you put the collar to be a little angel.And when the collar comes off the bad behavior reappears.If it is your last resort then I would say go ahead and try.

I am not an advocate for the collars and try everything else first before I even think of using it but when a dog continuosly goes on the road and you can yell and scream and do every bargaining tool in the book I will use it if it means my girls and boy stay alive.
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Postby bigbull338 » Tue May 22, 2007 7:56 pm

hillsdown wrote:Big Bull I have used a shock collar and still do because it saves their lives (the dogs).Sometimes they just can't stay off the road so when that happens the collar goes on and when they wonder near the road they get a warning and then zapped.Works really well and when they forget it gets pulled out again and used again.
BUT shock collars do not work on smart dogs ie. Border Collies you put that collar on and they will sit and do nothing until it comes off.So in my opinion they are great for stupid dogs when training and reasoning doesn't sink in.They are also good for puppies to train to avoid dangerous situations but if the puppy is smart you can only use the collar once as they will always know when you put it on them what it is.

SO if you use a collar on your dog in question you will get one chance to train and correct the bad behavior.It sounds like a smart one and if you mess up it will know the next time you put the collar to be a little angel.And when the collar comes off the bad behavior reappears.If it is your last resort then I would say go ahead and try.

I am not an advocate for the collars and try everything else first before I even think of using it but when a dog continuosly goes on the road and you can yell and scream and do every bargaining tool in the book I will use it if it means my girls and boy stay alive.
see im in the same boat you was in.if the shock collar makes her sitt down an not move then so be it.but she goes a step further she will sneak out in the pasture an run the cows.so if the collar stops her great.
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Postby Keren » Tue May 22, 2007 8:50 pm

Working dogs will only work for you if you are the 'alpha dog'. They have a pack mentality, it is just their nature. This dog is higher in the pack than you are. You need to bring it down below you. The shock collar will work, but as people have said so would a rope, or in my case what works is a bit of poly pipe (I'm not saying beat your dogs up, but a thump on the ground next to them or a tap can work well to establish your dominance).

Keep in mind some dogs are just chasers and can't be stopped. Some are simply not suitable for working dogs.
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Postby Howdyjabo » Tue May 22, 2007 10:15 pm

Ever think that it might just be a really good cattledog ????
A good one you;'d have to kill to get working(and yes to the dog right now chasing is working) out of its head.

Obedience goes out the window with some dogs if the choice is-- listen and get no work or ignore the command and get to do what you are DRIVEN to do.

You have three choices now Givng you the benefit that you have done a good job with obedience already.................

1- teach the dog how to herd properly(or hire someone to teach it)
2- get rid of the dog or the stock
3- put a shock collar on it and hope you can overpower and obliterate its instincts
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Postby msscamp » Tue May 22, 2007 11:29 pm

bigbull338 wrote:
Dusty Britches wrote:2 thoughts on this -

Brute is right - your dog doesn't respect you. Go back to basic commands in a controlled setting - fenced yard or on lead. Don't let the dog move without your permission. Here/come better be instant, without hestiation. All commands should be instant. Do not let anyone try to override your commands. (my husband used to do that - I'd say "here" and the dog would not listen, then, as I said it again, my husband would yell louder than me, overriding my voice.) Once she is solid on listening to you on lead, take her off. Get solid again before going to cattle/ work.

Have you contacted a professional trainer? That might be a good alternative before getting rid of a potentially good dog. The professional trainer I'm working with says cow dogs are way too sensitive to use e-collars. My hunting dog uses one, but not my cow dog.
i dont think respect is her prob.i think she just has a mind of her own.an trys todo what she pleases around me.


That is the very definition of "lack of respect"! :roll:
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