Tax Reform

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HDRider
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Re: Tax Reform

Postby HDRider » Tue Nov 21, 2017 2:20 pm

Brute 23 wrote:
HDRider wrote:
ChrisB wrote:Just out of curiosity, does anyone know what the federal sales take rate would have to be without any spending cuts?

By my calculation, and I could very easily be wrong, the sales tax rate would have to be 85% to balance the budget.

The Federal budget is a little over $4 trillion. Sales of goods and services in the US is $5 Trillion per year. So we would almost double the cost of everything with sales tax.


That's IF you kept up with the budget. The tax cuts are not a silver bullet. The govt spending HAS TO come down. There is NO TAX PLAN that can keep up with their spending.

There has to be a fundamental change in the was the US operates financially. The bad thing is a lot of the little things discussed here will not even move the needle in the budget.

The best thing I have heard from Trump is forcing these other countries to pay for their own, or reimburse us, for our military expenses. Our defense budget is crazy and we spend a lot of dollars defending countries that pay us nothing for that.

I admire your optimism. You will outgrow it.

Not only do we need to match the budget, (and I agree spending should come down, it won't, but it needs to) we have to pay off our $13.62 trillion debt. That is almost four years intake with this new sales tax. I guess we could quadruple the cost of goods and service via a new tax and pay it off in a year. Optimistically speaking.
We are charging down hill, at full speed, with no brakes, headlong into a catastrophe.
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Re: Tax Reform

Postby Brute 23 » Tue Nov 21, 2017 2:22 pm

Craig Miller wrote:
Brute 23 wrote:
HDRider wrote:You will have to explain to me how the same person pays taxes twice on those two things.


So let's say you and I have a C Corp. The corporation will pay the corporate tax rate on any profit (1st).

Then when you and I take decide to pay dividends on our shares we would personally pay taxes on that money, again (2nd).

Now, let's say in spite of all that taxation we are each able to have a net worth of $10 million dollars from our C-corp when we die. The government will tax our heir(s) every thing over $5.49 million (3rd).

So actually that same dollar could be taxed 3 times.

I don't see how any one in agriculture would not be for Trumps tax plans. He wants to eliminate the death tax. That is a huge killer of family farms and ranches. That alone is enough reason to back his plans.

When every one blames the kids for selling off daddy's land remember some off them are forced to just to pay the taxes. :mad:


You just said in this quote the estate tax is anything over 5.49 mil. Double that for married couples. How many small farms are worth dollars like that? According to the numbers I've seen it's somewhere around 0.2% of all people end up paying the estate tax.


It doesn't matter if its 5 people... its not right.

Its not that hard around here. A couple years ago land values went thru the roof. Lets say grandma died and had a house built in 1960, a 2000 ac ranch property, and lets say $500,000 is misc cash and assets. The land got valued at $8K and acre, the house was $500K, and $500K in cash. She has 1 daughter who is a school teacher and she just inherited $17M in assets. In 2001 is would have been worth $4-4.5M. She was unlucky and died in a boom.
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Re: Tax Reform

Postby Brute 23 » Tue Nov 21, 2017 2:23 pm

HDRider wrote:
Brute 23 wrote:
HDRider wrote:By my calculation, and I could very easily be wrong, the sales tax rate would have to be 85% to balance the budget.

The Federal budget is a little over $4 trillion. Sales of goods and services in the US is $5 Trillion per year. So we would almost double the cost of everything with sales tax.


That's IF you kept up with the budget. The tax cuts are not a silver bullet. The govt spending HAS TO come down. There is NO TAX PLAN that can keep up with their spending.

There has to be a fundamental change in the was the US operates financially. The bad thing is a lot of the little things discussed here will not even move the needle in the budget.

The best thing I have heard from Trump is forcing these other countries to pay for their own, or reimburse us, for our military expenses. Our defense budget is crazy and we spend a lot of dollars defending countries that pay us nothing for that.

I admire your optimism. You will outgrow it.

Not only do we need to match the budget, (and I agree spending should come down, it won't, but it needs to) we have to pay off our $13.62 trillion debt. That is almost four years intake with this new sales tax. I guess we could quadruple the cost of goods and service via a new tax and pay it off in a year. Optimistically speaking.
We are charging down hill, at full speed, with no brakes, headlong into a catastrophe.


Im not saying it will ever happen but Im saying the current president is the closest one we will ever see to actually attempt to get it right.
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Re: Tax Reform

Postby HDRider » Tue Nov 21, 2017 2:25 pm

Brute 23 wrote:
Craig Miller wrote:
Brute 23 wrote:
So let's say you and I have a C Corp. The corporation will pay the corporate tax rate on any profit (1st).

Then when you and I take decide to pay dividends on our shares we would personally pay taxes on that money, again (2nd).

Now, let's say in spite of all that taxation we are each able to have a net worth of $10 million dollars from our C-corp when we die. The government will tax our heir(s) every thing over $5.49 million (3rd).

So actually that same dollar could be taxed 3 times.

I don't see how any one in agriculture would not be for Trumps tax plans. He wants to eliminate the death tax. That is a huge killer of family farms and ranches. That alone is enough reason to back his plans.

When every one blames the kids for selling off daddy's land remember some off them are forced to just to pay the taxes. :mad:


You just said in this quote the estate tax is anything over 5.49 mil. Double that for married couples. How many small farms are worth dollars like that? According to the numbers I've seen it's somewhere around 0.2% of all people end up paying the estate tax.


It doesn't matter if its 5 people... its not right.

Its not that hard around here. A couple years ago land values went thru the roof. Lets say grandma died and had a house built in 1960, a 2000 ac ranch property, and lets say $500,000 is misc cash and assets. The land got valued at $8K and acre, the house was $500K, and $500K in cash. She has 1 daughter who is a school teacher and she just inherited $17M in assets. In 2001 is would have been worth $4-4.5M. She was unlucky and died in a boom.

Then she could sell it and only get hit with a 50% tax for capital gains.
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Re: Tax Reform

Postby HDRider » Tue Nov 21, 2017 2:27 pm

Brute 23 wrote:
HDRider wrote:
Brute 23 wrote:[/b]
That's IF you kept up with the budget. The tax cuts are not a silver bullet. The govt spending HAS TO come down. There is NO TAX PLAN that can keep up with their spending.

There has to be a fundamental change in the was the US operates financially. The bad thing is a lot of the little things discussed here will not even move the needle in the budget.

The best thing I have heard from Trump is forcing these other countries to pay for their own, or reimburse us, for our military expenses. Our defense budget is crazy and we spend a lot of dollars defending countries that pay us nothing for that.

I admire your optimism. You will outgrow it.

Not only do we need to match the budget, (and I agree spending should come down, it won't, but it needs to) we have to pay off our $13.62 trillion debt. That is almost four years intake with this new sales tax. I guess we could quadruple the cost of goods and service via a new tax and pay it off in a year. Optimistically speaking.
We are charging down hill, at full speed, with no brakes, headlong into a catastrophe.


Im not saying it will ever happen but Im saying the current president is the closest one we will ever see to actually attempt to get it right.

And he is being fought from every angle. His own party, the opposing party, the media, Hollywood, everyone, everyone but the common, hard working man and woman, is fighting him every step of the way, and hurling the most vile insults his way.
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bball wrote: "The juice wasn't worth the squeeze."
Dun said, "You gotta be flexible. Do whatever you have to do for the best results within your limitations."

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Re: Tax Reform

Postby Brute 23 » Tue Nov 21, 2017 3:01 pm

HDRider wrote:
Brute 23 wrote:
Craig Miller wrote:
You just said in this quote the estate tax is anything over 5.49 mil. Double that for married couples. How many small farms are worth dollars like that? According to the numbers I've seen it's somewhere around 0.2% of all people end up paying the estate tax.


It doesn't matter if its 5 people... its not right.

Its not that hard around here. A couple years ago land values went thru the roof. Lets say grandma died and had a house built in 1960, a 2000 ac ranch property, and lets say $500,000 is misc cash and assets. The land got valued at $8K and acre, the house was $500K, and $500K in cash. She has 1 daughter who is a school teacher and she just inherited $17M in assets. In 2001 is would have been worth $4-4.5M. She was unlucky and died in a boom.

Then she could sell it and only get hit with a 50% tax for capital gains.


Damned if you do... damned if you don't. Either way the govt will get their part while they destroy what some family worked their whole life for. :mad:
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Re: Tax Reform

Postby HDRider » Tue Nov 21, 2017 3:16 pm



Could not find the Beatles.
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bball wrote: "The juice wasn't worth the squeeze."
Dun said, "You gotta be flexible. Do whatever you have to do for the best results within your limitations."

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Re: Tax Reform

Postby True Grit Farms » Tue Nov 21, 2017 3:43 pm

The bottom line is we need to stay optimistic and hope for the best. At least we still have a chance to make America great again. If things would of went the other way a year ago we were through as a free nation, with no hope for things to get better.
We need to stay optimistic and do whatever we can to vote the incumbents out, they have failed US.
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Re: Tax Reform

Postby Caustic Burno » Tue Nov 21, 2017 3:55 pm

True Grit Farms wrote:The bottom line is we need to stay optimistic and hope for the best. At least we still have a chance to make America great again. If things would of went the other way a year ago we were through as a free nation, with no hope for things to get better.
We need to stay optimistic and do whatever we can to vote the incumbents out, they have failed US.


There in lies the problem Grit is getting the incumbent out. Everyone hates their government but loves their congressman that brings home the bacon.
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Re: Tax Reform

Postby True Grit Farms » Tue Nov 21, 2017 4:14 pm

Caustic Burno wrote:
True Grit Farms wrote:The bottom line is we need to stay optimistic and hope for the best. At least we still have a chance to make America great again. If things would of went the other way a year ago we were through as a free nation, with no hope for things to get better.
We need to stay optimistic and do whatever we can to vote the incumbents out, they have failed US.


There in lies the problem Grit is getting the incumbent out. Everyone hates their government but loves their congressman that brings home the bacon.

I fight that free money urge daily with my wife as a minority farm owner and my son as a young farmer with assets. There's so much money available to them between subsidies, cost share, and low interest loans it's ridiculous. I try to explain to them it's not the government's money, it's the taxpayers money that the government is trying to give away. We're still hanging in there and have hope that more folks will see, that by taking money that's not yours is only hurting the country and making it's people dependent upon the government.
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Re: Tax Reform

Postby Caustic Burno » Tue Nov 21, 2017 4:30 pm

Grit it’s like in the movie O Brother Where Art Thou.
You can sell you soul to the devil or the sirens will try and lure you in as well.
It comes at a high cost.
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Re: Tax Reform

Postby TexasBred » Tue Nov 21, 2017 5:08 pm

Brute 23 wrote:
HDRider wrote:
Brute 23 wrote:
It doesn't matter if its 5 people... its not right.

Its not that hard around here. A couple years ago land values went thru the roof. Lets say grandma died and had a house built in 1960, a 2000 ac ranch property, and lets say $500,000 is misc cash and assets. The land got valued at $8K and acre, the house was $500K, and $500K in cash. She has 1 daughter who is a school teacher and she just inherited $17M in assets. In 2001 is would have been worth $4-4.5M. She was unlucky and died in a boom.

Then she could sell it and only get hit with a 50% tax for capital gains.


Damned if you do... damned if you don't. Either way the govt will get their part while they destroy what some family worked their whole life for. :mad:

Brute what do you figure 2000 acres and a house was worth down there in 1960?? Couple hundred thousand dollars?? Sounds like inflation looked after the surviving daughter well.
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Re: Tax Reform

Postby Brute 23 » Tue Nov 21, 2017 5:45 pm

TexasBred wrote:
Brute 23 wrote:
HDRider wrote:Then she could sell it and only get hit with a 50% tax for capital gains.


Damned if you do... damned if you don't. Either way the govt will get their part while they destroy what some family worked their whole life for. :mad:

Brute what do you figure 2000 acres and a house was worth down there in 1960?? Couple hundred thousand dollars?? Sounds like inflation looked after the surviving daughter well.


I would have to ask some one about 1960 :kid: but I know in like 92' my family bought a piece of property for $1200 an acre. It would sell for every bit of $8-10K per acre. Houses built in 1960 that might have cost $40K are bringing several hundred thousand dollars with a decent yard and a couple pretty oak trees.

In the 90s you could buy larger 1000+ acre properties for $800-1000/ ac. In 2015 you could have 4-8X your money depending on the size and location.
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Re: Tax Reform

Postby Brute 23 » Tue Nov 21, 2017 5:55 pm

True Grit Farms wrote:The bottom line is we need to stay optimistic and hope for the best. At least we still have a chance to make America great again. If things would of went the other way a year ago we were through as a free nation, with no hope for things to get better.
We need to stay optimistic and do whatever we can to vote the incumbents out, they have failed US.


That is the most frustrating thing about the climate right now in America. People need to realize we need to unite and not divide down political lines. Its the citizens vs the government right now. No matter your beliefs on these issues, at the end of the day, if we continue down this path no one is going to get what they want. The government can not support this amount of spending long term.
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Re: Tax Reform

Postby CSM » Tue Nov 21, 2017 7:41 pm

One proposed national sales tax was the Fair Tax. Neal Boortz was one of the supporters and he may have been one of the writers on a couple of books several years ago. I am in favor, but congress will never surrender the power the current tax plan has over the people.
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