Who would use this bull?

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boondocks
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Re: Who would use this bull?

Postby boondocks » Wed Sep 20, 2017 11:20 pm

[quote="Nesikep"].... a postlegged swayback furball....

Image
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Smallpotatoes
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Re: Who would use this bull?

Postby Smallpotatoes » Thu Sep 21, 2017 9:20 am

You make good points and I totally agree. There are a lot of bulls in stud catalogs that I would never consider using for one reason or another. He's one of them. The thing we all love about the industry ( the ability to make our own breeding decisions ) is also one of our biggest downfalls. Across the industry we have a lack of consistency and I think that hurts the industry at the consumer level. I know when I buy chicken i bought chicken. I know what experience I will have regardless of when or where it's purchased. It's not the same with beef, consumers have both good and bad experiences with no real rhyme or reason.

Regardless, we are all beef producers and I can appreciate every segment of the industry.
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Boot Jack Bulls
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Re: Who would use this bull?

Postby Boot Jack Bulls » Thu Sep 21, 2017 5:12 pm

boondocks wrote:So, I'll admit to knowing nothing about the show market. I did grow up in ag country and spent time at the county fair watching the judging, etc. From there, I got the idea that the animals were hopefully good (even ideal) representatives of their breed. Was that wrong, or have things changed maybe?
Over the past couple of years, I had (accurately, I think) picked up that the current show animals are to have a certain "look" (phenotype). Many of them I've seen marketed as for "show" have sway backs. Our genetics advisor/buddy wasn't real fond of the look (for structural reasons I guess). So between that and the EPDs on the bull I linked to, it seemed odd to me that that bull was meant as an idealized representative of the breed. The fairs I'd go to, the winning animals sold at a premium due to their value as breeding stock, etc.
So, back to my original question: I'm not anti-show at all (think it's a great way for kids to learn). I just can't understand why there would be a complete dichotomy between what "works in the ring" and what "works in the field." You look at that bull's EPDs and it's such a "one of these things is not like the other" moment...
Is the answer that they are essentially now 2 entirely separate markets? ie, a show bull (or heifer) is used to beget other show bulls (or heifers) who are used to beget yet more show bulls/heifers.....rarely the twain shall meet?

I understand your points, and they have real merit. But, who said this bull is for the show ring? The semen company. They will also say that certain bulls are calving ease, when their use in herds clearly says they are not. Just because of what a semen company put in an add in attempt to sell units, doesn't mean squat. I am very involved in the show world, and have never even heard of this bull prior to this, much less seen its offspring win anything significant. That in itself tells me that those so called show breeders are not as dumb as some think!

I will use a Limi breeder I know fairly well as a perfect example of a breeder who wins in the ring and gets the job done in the pasture as well. Look up Spring Creeks Cattle Co. Bart and Bob and family are some of the best cattlemen I know. They expect their stock to work for them in numbers that most people in the upper Midwest cannot fathom. Their cows are in groups that number in the hundreds on seriously hilly terrain and are not babied. They raise calves that have growth potential and longevity. And yet, somehow, they won the cow/calf champion title at junior nationals last year! They don't have climate controlled coolers and a team hired just to run the show string and clip and fit. They prove that an eye for phenotype, a good handle on EPDs and an in-depth understanding of pedigrees along with good husbandry practices can make a for a herd that can get it done in both the pasture and the ring.
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Son of Butch
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Re: Who would use this bull?

Postby Son of Butch » Thu Sep 21, 2017 6:50 pm

Boot Jack Bulls wrote:....who said this bull is for the show ring? The semen company. They will also say that certain bulls are calving ease,
when their use in herds clearly says they are not.

Miss Information.... Select Sires does not calculate or control the EPD breed information.

Back to original question.... IF not for the Show Ring.... then what is the purpose?
Why choose to use either Double Black or First-N-Goal instead of any of the 60+ black angus bulls Select has available?

Select owns neither bull and the use for Show Ring comments come from the bull owners that formed the syndicate
to market them.
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Smallpotatoes
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Re: Who would use this bull?

Postby Smallpotatoes » Thu Sep 21, 2017 7:58 pm

I've not contacted my salesmen, but when I bought SAV Angus Valley last year he was a calving ease bull. Today he is below average for the breed. He's not a new bull by any means and only the epd calculation changed. Boot jack has a point.

I don't mean this argumentative by any means, but this bull works for producers with cows who sales at weaning. Here we get paid for animals that are black, without ear, by the pound. I hate its different state to state but it is.

Regardless, we are all on the same team. There are so many against us, the last thing we need is to be against eachother.
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Re: Who would use this bull?

Postby Boot Jack Bulls » Thu Sep 21, 2017 8:02 pm

Son of Butch wrote:
Boot Jack Bulls wrote:....who said this bull is for the show ring? The semen company. They will also say that certain bulls are calving ease,
when their use in herds clearly says they are not.

Miss Information.... Select Sires does not calculate or control the EPD breed information.

Back to original question.... IF not for the Show Ring.... then what is the purpose?
Why choose to use either Double Black or First-N-Goal instead of any of the 60+ black angus bulls Select has available?

Select owns neither bull and the use for Show Ring comments come from the bull owners that formed the syndicate
to market them.

How do you know that's where the comment came from?

And no, SS does not control the EPDs. I never said they did. I am not arguing the bull in question is far from balanced EPD wise, I am pointing out that the other matter of contention most have with this bull (his phenotype and "show appeal") is completely subjective.

There are tons of bulls out there in those glossy AI catalogs that have no business being used in commercial herds or seedstock/ show ring herds. That doesn't stop them from being syndicated and collected..... They are simply attempting to profit from the fact that there is a sucker born every second!
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Re: Who would use this bull?

Postby boondocks » Thu Sep 21, 2017 10:42 pm

Good comments, all. I'm a relative newbie so I'm genuinely trying to understand the different markets and whether I was missing something really great in the EPDs for that bull. I have to assume someone is buying him; perhaps Smallpotatoes is right as to the application.
Boot Jack, it sounds like that's not a bull you'd recommend as a sire for the show ring? How much focus do show ring folks put on EPDs--perhaps it varies a lot?
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Re: Who would use this bull?

Postby Son of Butch » Thu Sep 21, 2017 10:44 pm

Boot Jack Bulls wrote: the contention most have with this bull (his phenotype and "show appeal") is completely subjective.

Exactly the problem with the Show Ring, it is all completely subjective and thus accomplishes nothing.

The only shows of value are the carcass contests, a great learning experience and educational tool.
Carcass contests provide the opportunity to test your subjective opinion of a live animal vs actual measured results.


edited to add:
There is no epd for hair. :)
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Re: Who would use this bull?

Postby Smallpotatoes » Fri Sep 22, 2017 5:29 pm

Boondocks, I think you're right. The amount people look at epds varies. It also varies breed to breed. For instance, it's hard to find a Shorthorn bull with decent epds to use AI. To the point it's frustrating. I can't promise, but I think at the Angus jr nationals they look at a calves epds. At least I'm convinced they were mentioned in a judge's reasons. Just caught a little bit of it online, but it stuck out to me and I think it's a great thing. I could be wrong though.
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