Best Angus cow maker bulls?

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Son of Butch
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Re: Best Angus cow maker bulls?

Postby Son of Butch » Wed Jan 03, 2018 2:27 pm

Air gator wrote:I used the new Angus DNA test on some calves and let me tell you that either the DNA is right or Epds are right.
Can't be both.

EXT has a docility epd of -10 but I assure you that many people have animals with EXT in their pedigree that are not dangerous or even awkward.


When using Epds Accuracy is very important. Low Accuracy epds have a much higher margin of error.
So Yes it can be both, when the margins of error overlap.

Back in the day holstiens bulls, before DNA tests, epd formula could accurately predict that 20 out of 100 holstein
young unproven bulls would significantly increase genetic merit... it just couldn't tell you which 20 they were.
Bull studs would buy 100 bulls each year and use them for 1 year and then house them for 3 years, waiting for the
daughter production records to identify the top 20 to add to their line up. Then they'd butcher the other 80.
20 of which were every bit as bad as the top 20 were good. It was an expensive process.

EXT... yes I had a great grandson of EXT that was dog gentle (sired by War Party doc 30 acc 89%)
The grandsire of EXT, Emulation doc -23 was born 49 years ago at the start of Angus losing their docile reputation.
If it can be bred in then it can be bred out.

My rule of thumb for epds is 1/3 will be better than predicted 1/3 worse and 1/3 accurate.
Which ones are which and how much better or how much worse are the great unknowns.

Genetics are a crap shoot, but by using sires with high accuracy epds it at least lets you play with loaded dice.
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Re: Best Angus cow maker bulls?

Postby Stocker Steve » Wed Jan 03, 2018 2:36 pm

Stocker Steve wrote:
Son of Butch wrote:Statistically sexed semen cost = approx $120 per additional heifer calf


Lots of technology development going on for sexed semen. The swimmers will only improve.
STgenetics is claiming "comparable conception" to regular semen with their fluorescent dye sorting method.
So why would you not use sexed semen on heifers you plan to AI anyways?
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Re: Best Angus cow maker bulls?

Postby Son of Butch » Wed Jan 03, 2018 4:01 pm

Swimmers never improve, once semen leaves the bull it can only be damaged, never improved.

I'm sure they've made advancement from when I used it 10 years ago on holsteins.
I prefer data over antidote evidence, even so a couple of longtime friends that are semen reps have never given me
glowing reports. My very first calf from heifer sexed semen was a Bull. LOL... :) hey it happens.
I was disappointed in the conception, so cost more than I expected per additional heifer calf.

I'd definitely recommend for use in embryo work.
But for commercial beef heifers 50/50 calf crop works for me, because I'm a cheap bxstrxd also I would prefer to keep replacements from the cows we AI when possible over first calf heifers.
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Re: Best Angus cow maker bulls?

Postby Lazy M » Wed Jan 03, 2018 7:23 pm

Son of Butch wrote: I would prefer to keep replacements from the cows we AI when possible over first calf heifers.

SOB: why do you say this? The reason I ask is I said the same thing to one of our extension agents. He said that "if your goal is constantly improving your cattle with each generation, why do you go back a generation on what you retain?".. Made me think a little bit.
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Re: Best Angus cow maker bulls?

Postby Son of Butch » Wed Jan 03, 2018 10:17 pm

The older cow has proven herself a little bit more by breeding back on time vs the heifer.
Each calf crop is not so much a new generation as a continuation of the current herd.
I am not opposed to keeping replacements from a heifer, and if she's any good will have several more chances to
contribute her genetics to the mix. Also the sire I select for cows may well have better genetics than the calving ease sire I choose to use on heifers. Although AI with sexed semen certainly increases the range of sires I'd be willing to use on heifers.
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Re: Best Angus cow maker bulls?

Postby Son of Butch » Thu Jan 04, 2018 2:38 pm

Stocker Steve wrote:So why would you not use sexed semen on heifers you plan to AI anyways?

I think asking 2 questions will help in deciding whether or not to use sexed semen.

1. How many replacement heifers do I need per year?
2. Do I have a good market for selling excess replacement heifers?

Some years you want more heifers, other years not so much.
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Re: Best Angus cow maker bulls?

Postby Stocker Steve » Thu Jan 04, 2018 5:43 pm

1. 15 to 20
2. Think so.

If one was a confident optimizer -- you would use sexed heifer semen during a portion of the cattle cycle. :idea:
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Re: Best Angus cow maker bulls?

Postby Midtenn » Thu Jan 04, 2018 8:39 pm

Air gator wrote:I used the new Angus DNA test on some calves and let me tell you that either the DNA is right or Epds are right. Can't be both.
I had a bull calf and his epds based on his parents were quite different than his new ones after the DNA results.
His YW epd was around 70 and his milk epd was around 21. After DNA testing his YW epd went to 100 and his milk epd went down to +8. This calf's sire has a YW epd of 89 and his mother has a YW epd of 60. You would not expect to have them produce a calf with a YW epd of 100, would you?

So, if you are looking at Rampage his DNA test could have had a big impact on his docility epd. It could have dropped his Docility score down very low to a point where it would take a lot of calves to raise it. EXT has a docility epd of -10 but I assure you that many people have animals with EXT in their pedigree that are not dangerous or even awkward. I think it must be the same for Rampage. I think Connealy had 18 Rampage sons in their March 2017 sale. Of those 18, I think two bulls had a docility score of 3. Sixteen had a score of 2. Connnealys have their own docility scoring system of 1 to 5. They cull 4's and 5's and won't sell those

The DNA results have been a wake up call for me with regards to epds. I had been skeptical about the new epds when I saw some bulls have their milk epd drop by 20 points. Now, I see epds more as "potential" for individuals and not EVERY calf will reach this potential. So, in the end you have to go with animals you think will work.

With regards to bottle calves I have 8 adult cows that I bottle fed. Three are docile and will allow you to pet them. The other four are just like any other cow you would have in the pasture. Unless you have time to pet every cow every day they don't stay tame. I was always told to be careful with the idea of giving bulls or cow treats because the day you don't have any treats the animals might not want to take no for an answer.

I think if you have to take a hot stick with you to to be around your animals then it's time you ship some of them. I don't believe anyone on this site is getting rich raising cattle. If you are risking your life then the reward should be much greater than what any of us will make on cows or calves.


I put more faith in the DNA test than in the overall epd's. Based off the few I've raised from birth to 18 months or greater, DNA tests have proven pretty true for me, and usually match phenotype, performance, etc. On the other hand, Overall epd numbers usually do not match what I see in most of my cows performance and other traits.
I would DNA test every heifer I keep if I could afford it, even commercial, and I may do it yet.
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Re: Best Angus cow maker bulls?

Postby Tbrake » Thu Jan 04, 2018 10:28 pm

I’m clueless on this talk about dna test. What can they tell you from it? Do they have to be registered? How much does it cost?
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Re: Best Angus cow maker bulls?

Postby wbvs58 » Fri Jan 05, 2018 4:59 am

I get the Zoetis 50k test done on all my replacement heifers now, I have 2 year lots done now with a few of the older ones. Over here they do it and parent verification for $56 and I think there was just another price fall of a few dollars. Hair follicles are the sample we submit. With the new singlestep Breedplan calculations they improve the accuracy of our EBV's. I have found in the majority of my heifers they have significantly improved their numbers. I have found with being a small herd of 30 cows and submitting data especially ultrasound data I get big fluctuations in their numbers so I have elected to not scan them but spend the money on genomics as it compares the figures of my cattle with all other herds not just mine.

Ken
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Re: Best Angus cow maker bulls?

Postby SchenkAngusFarm » Fri Jan 05, 2018 1:46 pm

wbvs58 wrote:I get the Zoetis 50k test done on all my replacement heifers now, I have 2 year lots done now with a few of the older ones. Over here they do it and parent verification for $56 and I think there was just another price fall of a few dollars. Hair follicles are the sample we submit. With the new singlestep Breedplan calculations they improve the accuracy of our EBV's. I have found in the majority of my heifers they have significantly improved their numbers. I have found with being a small herd of 30 cows and submitting data especially ultrasound data I get big fluctuations in their numbers so I have elected to not scan them but spend the money on genomics as it compares the figures of my cattle with all other herds not just mine.

Ken


I ordered a whole lot of Zoestis 50K at the ned of last year and I think they are down to 47 or something like that. I ordered so many that I forgot the individual price but it is nice. It may even be a little cheaper than that.
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Re: Best Angus cow maker bulls?

Postby Hogtiming » Fri Jan 05, 2018 8:42 pm

The agi test is 37 dollars. Suppose to be a little more accurate but who knows.
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Re: Best Angus cow maker bulls?

Postby hornedfrogbbq » Mon Feb 19, 2018 6:38 pm

The Connealy family is top shelf. They have huge "scores" when you look at honesty, quality and ethics. I have met them and emailed with them for several years and we have a ton of their genetics in our herd even though I have yet to buy a bull from them.

I'll be at their sale next fall.
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Re: Best Angus cow maker bulls?

Postby torogmc81 » Wed Feb 28, 2018 6:55 am

mncowboy wrote:
Stocker Steve wrote:I would like to try using sexed semen on my heifers. Who are the top angus bulls that have sexed heifer calf semen available?


SAV Bismarck does through Genex, something like $60 a straw.


As of a week or so ago Bismark passed away. Word on the fencepost is that all conventional inventory was already distributed to reps. As for the sorted, someone had come along and cleaned out the whole stock, some 1200 straws of sexed Bismark. Just like that, he gone
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Re: Best Angus cow maker bulls?

Postby Ebenezer » Thu Mar 01, 2018 8:20 am

Lazy M wrote:
Son of Butch wrote: I would prefer to keep replacements from the cows we AI when possible over first calf heifers.

SOB: why do you say this? The reason I ask is I said the same thing to one of our extension agents. He said that "if your goal is constantly improving your cattle with each generation, why do you go back a generation on what you retain?".. Made me think a little bit.

If you have a cow(s) that you really know that fits the environment, management, farm, ... why improve her? How d you know that the new genes are as good for farm fit as her's when you use an AI bull?
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