Flushing with sexed semen ?

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Re: Flushing with sexed semen ?

Postby gizmom » Fri Feb 16, 2018 10:11 am

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We will be flushing our SAV Blackcap May 0524 to SAV Extension 6856 sexed heifer semen. I have been interested in this bull since I saw him listed in the Schaff catalog last year when Ingram Angus picked him up at the sale it confirmed to me that I needed to sample him, It will be used the second time she is flushed first flush will be to a bull we collected Coleman EXT 6149. We flushed her that way once and got 4 eggs all took three Bulls and one heifer. The heifer is the best heifer we have in the first calf heifer pen at this stage. She took AI first time through the chute has a hum dinger of a heifer calf at side out of Charlo. I would like to make a pasture full just like her. We haven’t palpated yet to know if she bred back AI but man I like Her a bunch. The third flush will be to SAV Abundance I just liked that bull so much when we went to the AI studs last summer, I just want to add some of that genetic line into our herd. The other cow we will be flushing is Sinclair Queen Mother 6R109 she will be flushed to 6149 we currently have 7 calves on the ground out of this mating and they are all really good. Second flush will be to SAV Reign and third flush to Charlo.

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Re: Flushing with sexed semen ?

Postby gizmom » Fri Feb 16, 2018 10:11 am

BSE
We will be flushing our SAV Blackcap May 0524 to SAV Extension 6856 sexed heifer semen. I have been interested in this bull since I saw him listed in the Schaff catalog last year when Ingram Angus picked him up at the sale it confirmed to me that I needed to sample him, It will be used the second time she is flushed first flush will be to a bull we collected Coleman EXT 6149. We flushed her that way once and got 4 eggs all took three Bulls and one heifer. The heifer is the best heifer we have in the first calf heifer pen at this stage. She took AI first time through the chute has a hum dinger of a heifer calf at side out of Charlo. I would like to make a pasture full just like her. We haven’t palpated yet to know if she bred back AI but man I like Her a bunch. The third flush will be to SAV Abundance I just liked that bull so much when we went to the AI studs last summer, I just want to add some of that genetic line into our herd. The other cow we will be flushing is Sinclair Queen Mother 6R109 she will be flushed to 6149 we currently have 7 calves on the ground out of this mating and they are all really good. Second flush will be to SAV Reign and third flush to Charlo.


Sorry about the double post traveling home today and this road is rough!
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Re: Flushing with sexed semen ?

Postby Fire Sweep Ranch » Fri Feb 16, 2018 2:47 pm

jd720 wrote:Fire Sweep I`m curious how long ago was your flush ? The reason I ask is supposedly they changed something a couple of years ago and the semen was supposed to be better than what I used about 5 - 6 years ago. I think I will try to talk to Dr. Spears and just ask his opinion I`m sure as many a he does he`s been asked to try it and I know he`ll give me an honest opinion.


It was about 5 years ago, maybe 6. Dr. Spears is at the top of his game, so do tell what he says when you ask him, I'd be curious to know.
I am not sold on IVF either. I bought two sets of IVF embryos, one set I knew was IVF, the other were advertised as conventional but when they arrived and we put one in, it was IVF. I have put two in, one stuck. My embryologist likes to have the recip about 24 hours out farther with an IVF (so 8 days instead of 7), he said he has better luck. So now that we know the second set is IVF, we can plan better.
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Re: Flushing with sexed semen ?

Postby NEFarmwife » Fri Feb 16, 2018 3:30 pm

We are flushing our recently purchased donor with regular semen 1st go round. We also ordered sexed semen and will be using that the second flush. We are doing both flushes with same sire.

Will be interesting to see the difference. Her 1st flush will be shortly. I'll report back what the results are but someone may have to remind me. Running on pure exhaustion these days.
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Re: Flushing with sexed semen ?

Postby SchenkAngusFarm » Tue Feb 20, 2018 9:51 am

Fire Sweep Ranch wrote:We flushed a cow with sexed semen, ended up with 12 unfertilized eggs. Our embryologist suggested against it, but I wanted to try. I learned my lesson.


That's just odd. The straws could have been bad because I have never heard of that kind of result before.
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Re: Flushing with sexed semen ?

Postby Bright Raven » Tue Feb 20, 2018 10:07 am

Fire Sweep Ranch wrote:
It was about 5 years ago, maybe 6. Dr. Spears is at the top of his game, so do tell what he says when you ask him, I'd be curious to know.
I am not sold on IVF either. I bought two sets of IVF embryos, one set I knew was IVF, the other were advertised as conventional but when they arrived and we put one in, it was IVF. I have put two in, one stuck. My embryologist likes to have the recip about 24 hours out farther with an IVF (so 8 days instead of 7), he said he has better luck. So now that we know the second set is IVF, we can plan better.


Kris, I sent Dr. Spears the following message to get an update on IVF. As I recall, he told me it has been improved.

Dr. Spears. I ask you once before about IVF in cattle. Please give me a brief response on how IVF embryos compare today with traditional flushed embryos in regard to viability and conception.
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Re: Flushing with sexed semen ?

Postby Jeanne - Simme Valley » Tue Feb 20, 2018 10:52 am

Will be interesting to hear his comments.
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Re: Flushing with sexed semen ?

Postby Bright Raven » Tue Feb 20, 2018 12:31 pm

Jeanne - Simme Valley wrote:Will be interesting to hear his comments.


Kris/Jeanne: here is Dr. Spears response.

We see about a 20% drop in preg rate versus conventional. Would not try sexed semen on conventional. Works better in IVF
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Re: Flushing with sexed semen ?

Postby pdfangus » Tue Feb 20, 2018 1:06 pm

Bright Raven wrote:
Jeanne - Simme Valley wrote:Will be interesting to hear his comments.


Kris/Jeanne: here is Dr. Spears response.

We see about a 20% drop in preg rate versus conventional. Would not try sexed semen on conventional. Works better in IVF


very interesting
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Re: Flushing with sexed semen ?

Postby jkwilson » Tue Feb 20, 2018 2:31 pm

When we have done IVF, they can "reverse sort" the semen at the time of fertilization. The sorting is both for viability and sex as I understand it. You use standard unsorted semen for this process.

We have gotten bull calves from sorted semen before, but never from the IVF sorting process.
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Re: Flushing with sexed semen ?

Postby Fire Sweep Ranch » Tue Feb 20, 2018 2:36 pm

Bright Raven wrote:
Jeanne - Simme Valley wrote:Will be interesting to hear his comments.


Kris/Jeanne: here is Dr. Spears response.

We see about a 20% drop in preg rate versus conventional. Would not try sexed semen on conventional. Works better in IVF

Exactly what my embryologist has said all along. IVF embryos vary from donor to donor, some have excellent results and some never stick. The technology has come a long ways, but it still is not at the same level as conventional. With IVF, it is important to get the donor collection sheet to know what stage they were froze at, and on most we put in the IVF frozen embryo one day later (day 8 instead of day 7).
If I wanted heifers from a flush, I would use IVF and take the lower conceptions. I would also set up recips to put in embryos fresh, and not frozen.
We will have our own little experiment here; a good customer of ours (bought a bull and cows from us) bought some IVF heifer embryos, sired by Milestone (and Stella Y5243). He never uses embryos, and asked if I could take one of his cows and implant for him, and he would give me the other two for my troubles. Worth the chance, he is bringing the cow out in March and I will keep her until she either passes 70 days OR I will AI her for him if she does not stick the embryo. I will get to try the other two on my own cows, all three eggs are 7-2 or 6-2 stage. Sure would love a heifer out of that mating.... one can dream, right?
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Re: Flushing with sexed semen ?

Postby SchenkAngusFarm » Tue Feb 20, 2018 4:43 pm

It's interesting to hear Dr. Spears say that.

I use Multigen here in Kentucky and they have had great results using sexed semen conventional for us and they certainly do not discourage its use.

Also, while IVF has come a long ways, I know a lot of buyers and auctioneers for that matter that don't trust it. I don't buy any IVF embryos myself.
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Re: Flushing with sexed semen ?

Postby WinterSpringsFarm » Wed Feb 21, 2018 6:18 am

SchenkAngusFarm: I had a cow come up with 20 unfertilized eggs on a conventional flush just about a month ago or so. Prior to that she flushed 18 good eggs. Both using conventional semen.

Fire Sweep: could you explain the 6-2 or 7-2 stages for me? Never heard anyone talk about stages and label them.
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Re: Flushing with sexed semen ?

Postby Fire Sweep Ranch » Wed Feb 21, 2018 9:49 am

So, when an embryo is collected, it is graded and scored. Based on that grade, the best ones are frozen (if not enough recips) and the poor ones are implanted or thrown away. The first number is based on the grade, with 5 being the best. We have had great luck implanting 4 and 5 stage embryos. Almost no one freezes a 7 or higher, or lower than a 3, that I know of. Most embryos are sold with a guarantee, buy three and they guarantee one pregnancy. No one wants to refund money, so the best are set up to sell. Here is a chart that is really good:
Image

The second number represents the quality of the embryo; how the zona pellicuda looks and such. A 1 is best, but a two is acceptable. We have put in 2's with good luck. It is said that a 2 will more likely be a heifer, but looking back at my data that is not necessarily true. Here is another good picture:
Image

Here is an actual microscope pic of what they look like, at different stages:
Image

So, you can see, the 6 and 7 are earlier maturing, and further along in development. It is my embryologists opinion that those need to go in cows that are on day 8, not day 7. This is our first season dealing with this, since 99% of the embryos I buy and put in are a 4 or 5, stage 1 or 2. I have the same conception on a 4-2 as I do on a 5-1. I bought some embryos that have came in as 6-1 and 7-1, in conventional, my vet said that is acceptable (but not desirable). In IVF, we need to be more picky about the recips and where they are in the cycle (day 8 versus 7).
Until this fall, I never messed with IVF, and really do not want to. I bought one set of eggs, knowing they were IVF, but have a great relationship with the seller (I have bought and put in numerous conventional embryos from them). They arrived as 5-1s. We put one in in December, and it stuck. I bought two sets from a dispersal sale the fall (same cow, different sires), advertised as conventional. When the embryos arrived, there was no paperwork (most come with the collection paperwork so you know what you are getting). They were sold as conventional, however when we put one in, the straw identified it as IVF. Not only that, it was a 7-2! Of course, it did not stick. I called up the company that made the embryos, and got the collection sheets (one set was IVF, one set was conventional). ALL of the embryos in that IVF lot (6 of them) are either 6 or 7, and quality 1 or 2. SO, any future recip I put those in will need to be on day 8 for our best chances.

That was probably WAY more information than what you wanted to know!
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Re: Flushing with sexed semen ?

Postby Bright Raven » Wed Feb 21, 2018 9:53 am

Fire Sweep Ranch wrote:So, when an embryo is collected, it is graded and scored. Based on that grade, the best ones are frozen (if not enough recips) and the poor ones are implanted or thrown away. The first number is based on the grade, with 5 being the best. We have had great luck implanting 4 and 5 stage embryos. Almost no one freezes a 7 or higher, or lower than a 3, that I know of. Most embryos are sold with a guarantee, buy three and they guarantee one pregnancy. No one wants to refund money, so the best are set up to sell. Here is a chart that is really good:
Image

The second number represents the quality of the embryo; how the zona pellicuda looks and such. A 1 is best, but a two is acceptable. We have put in 2's with good luck. It is said that a 2 will more likely be a heifer, but looking back at my data that is not necessarily true. Here is another good picture:
Image

Here is an actual microscope pic of what they look like, at different stages:
Image

So, you can see, the 6 and 7 are earlier maturing, and further along in development. It is my embryologists opinion that those need to go in cows that are on day 8, not day 7. This is our first season dealing with this, since 99% of the embryos I buy and put in are a 4 or 5, stage 1 or 2. I have the same conception on a 4-2 as I do on a 5-1. I bought some embryos that have came in as 6-1 and 7-1, in conventional, my vet said that is acceptable (but not desirable). In IVF, we need to be more picky about the recips and where they are in the cycle (day 8 versus 7).
Until this fall, I never messed with IVF, and really do not want to. I bought one set of eggs, knowing they were IVF, but have a great relationship with the seller (I have bought and put in numerous conventional embryos from them). They arrived as 5-1s. We put one in in December, and it stuck. I bought two sets from a dispersal sale the fall (same cow, different sires), advertised as conventional. When the embryos arrived, there was no paperwork (most come with the collection paperwork so you know what you are getting). They were sold as conventional, however when we put one in, the straw identified it as IVF. Not only that, it was a 7-2! Of course, it did not stick. I called up the company that made the embryos, and got the collection sheets (one set was IVF, one set was conventional). ALL of the embryos in that IVF lot (6 of them) are either 6 or 7, and quality 1 or 2. SO, any future recip I put those in will need to be on day 8 for our best chances.

That was probably WAY more information than what you wanted to know!


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