Making the best black baldy cattle

Discuss the advantages and disadvantages of your favorite breed.

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Caustic Burno
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Re: Making the best black baldy cattle

Postby Caustic Burno » Fri May 19, 2017 7:58 pm

WalnutCrest wrote:Bought stock can be depreciated ... raised stock cannot. They're is a tax angle here ...

There is no financial advantage to retaining in the commercial operation.
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Re: Making the best black baldy cattle

Postby WalnutCrest » Fri May 19, 2017 8:45 pm

Caustic Burno wrote:
WalnutCrest wrote:Bought stock can be depreciated ... raised stock cannot. They're is a tax angle here ...

There is no financial advantage to retaining in the commercial operation.


Unless you buy crappy replacements!
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Re: Making the best black baldy cattle

Postby elkwc » Fri May 19, 2017 11:02 pm

Caustic Burno wrote:
WalnutCrest wrote:Bought stock can be depreciated ... raised stock cannot. They're is a tax angle here ...

There is no financial advantage to retaining in the commercial operation.


It is different for everyone and also the area a person lives in makes a difference which is best. We have found in our situation it is cheaper for us to retain heifers and we also have a better idea what kind of cow they will make. Less culling. Like I stated before I purchased some for myself over the last 18 months. Have talked to several others that have also while trying to rebuild following the drought. Even buying the top dollar "Northern replacements" most have experienced a considerably higher cull rate than they do on their own retained heifers. I will be culling some I bought. The jury is still out on a few. I did buy some proven registered cows 4-5 y/o for about what a 2 y/0 bred would cost and they have worked out good. But unless something from a very reputable breeder comes available with a mother I can look at I hope I'm done buying any replacements. Again I maybe pickier than many are.
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Re: Making the best black baldy cattle

Postby Caustic Burno » Sat May 20, 2017 3:50 am

elkwc wrote:
Caustic Burno wrote:
WalnutCrest wrote:Bought stock can be depreciated ... raised stock cannot. They're is a tax angle here ...

There is no financial advantage to retaining in the commercial operation.


It is different for everyone and also the area a person lives in makes a difference which is best. We have found in our situation it is cheaper for us to retain heifers and we also have a better idea what kind of cow they will make. Less culling. Like I stated before I purchased some for myself over the last 18 months. Have talked to several others that have also while trying to rebuild following the drought. Even buying the top dollar "Northern replacements" most have experienced a considerably higher cull rate than they do on their own retained heifers. I will be culling some I bought. The jury is still out on a few. I did buy some proven registered cows 4-5 y/o for about what a 2 y/0 bred would cost and they have worked out good. But unless something from a very reputable breeder comes available with a mother I can look at I hope I'm done buying any replacements. Again I maybe pickier than many are.


Retaining has looser all over it by the time you get a heifer to production you have 2K in her.
You have fed two cows for two years her dam and her with no return in capital. Heifers bought or raised are always a crap shoot no matter where they come from.
The purchased heifer starts off with a tax advantage secondly you don't have two cows not contributing to the bottom line for two years.
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Re: Making the best black baldy cattle

Postby Post Oak » Sat May 20, 2017 5:18 am

I will retain heifers instead of purchasing heifers unless I am in a stage of rapid expansion. Retained heifers already know where the fences are and they are already adapted to my program. After generations of retaining heifers, the culling percentage decreases. Retaining heifers keeps the herd closed (except for a new bull) and that helps to safeguard the health of the herd.
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Re: Making the best black baldy cattle

Postby Caustic Burno » Sat May 20, 2017 5:30 am

Post Oak wrote:I will retain heifers instead of purchasing heifers unless I am in a stage of rapid expansion. Retained heifers already know where the fences are and they are already adapted to my program. After generations of retaining heifers, the culling percentage decreases. Retaining heifers keeps the herd closed (except for a new bull) and that helps to safeguard the health of the herd.


You think it does you can always buy the better cow cheaper than raise her.
The only advantage to retaining is genetic improvement and that doesn't exist in the terminal commercial operation.
Pasture blindness is a bad disease to be infected with.
You are leaving pounds off the scale not purchasing or using the F-1 cow and terminal bull.

https://www.noble.org/news/publications ... -or-legit/
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Re: Making the best black baldy cattle

Postby talltimber » Sat May 20, 2017 7:05 am

Post Oak wrote:I will retain heifers instead of purchasing heifers unless I am in a stage of rapid expansion. Retained heifers already know where the fences are and they are already adapted to my program. After generations of retaining heifers, the culling percentage decreases. Retaining heifers keeps the herd closed (except for a new bull) and that helps to safeguard the health of the herd.


Guys that are buying sale barn cows are not worried about herd health too much I don't think. Not that a guy will automatically have a problem with those cattle but, as you pointed out, there is not much worry about bringing anything in. It may already be there with all the sale barn cows he's already bought. Bought for slaughter price or a little above, who cares, right? (that's the sense I get out of some the statements)

CB, unless you are trolling, I would appreciate a more detailed explanation, particularly the above post, lines one and two.

I have kept heifers and bought heifers. The cow only loses one year, not two, without an outside check. She still makes money that year, on the heifer she raised, which she sold to the on-farm Heifer Development Program. :lol2:

The retained heifers I can "buy" a better quality, I think, than I can get on the market for the same money. Plus the advantages PO mentioned of being familiar with the program, known health history, etc.

Upgrading in genetics and shortening the time you have to fool with heifers/keep them alive/feed/etc is the only reason I see of buying, which I admit, seems to be some pretty good reasons. But if not trying to bring in better genetics, and if a guy enjoys the extra work and development, around here you can raise your own cheaper than you can buy good quality developed heifers six months out. By about 700 bucks or so/hd as of last fall. Now my heifers may not be the quality of those I used in my figuring, but they look good, out of older cows that have survived the cuts here for 9 or 10 yrs, so there is that.

I look forward to your, and others, reply and discussion as this is a topic I am interested in seeing how others view it, calculate it, and average end results.

Not meant to highjack your thread Clodhopper, and I am not raising black baldies, so I may need to delete this to keep from taking off on a tangent?
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Re: Making the best black baldy cattle

Postby Caustic Burno » Sat May 20, 2017 8:18 am

talltimber wrote:
Post Oak wrote:I will retain heifers instead of purchasing heifers unless I am in a stage of rapid expansion. Retained heifers already know where the fences are and they are already adapted to my program. After generations of retaining heifers, the culling percentage decreases. Retaining heifers keeps the herd closed (except for a new bull) and that helps to safeguard the health of the herd.


Guys that are buying sale barn cows are not worried about herd health too much I don't think. Not that a guy will automatically have a problem with those cattle but, as you pointed out, there is not much worry about bringing anything in. It may already be there with all the sale barn cows he's already bought. Bought for slaughter price or a little above, who cares, right? (that's the sense I get out of some the statements)

CB, unless you are trolling, I would appreciate a more detailed explanation, particularly the above post, lines one and two.

I have kept heifers and bought heifers. The cow only loses one year, not two, without an outside check. She still makes money that year, on the heifer she raised, which she sold to the on-farm Heifer Development Program. :lol2:

The retained heifers I can "buy" a better quality, I think, than I can get on the market for the same money. Plus the advantages PO mentioned of being familiar with the program, known health history, etc.

Upgrading in genetics and shortening the time you have to fool with heifers/keep them alive/feed/etc is the only reason I see of buying, which I admit, seems to be some pretty good reasons. But if not trying to bring in better genetics, and if a guy enjoys the extra work and development, around here you can raise your own cheaper than you can buy good quality developed heifers six months out. By about 700 bucks or so/hd as of last fall. Now my heifers may not be the quality of those I used in my figuring, but they look good, out of older cows that have survived the cuts here for 9 or 10 yrs, so there is that.

I look forward to your, and others, reply and discussion as this is a topic I am interested in seeing how others view it, calculate it, and average end results.

Not meant to highjack your thread Clodhopper, and I am not raising black baldies, so I may need to delete this to keep from taking off on a tangent?


You better sharpen your pencil you maintained that cow 730 days with no return. That retained heifer is not an asset but a liability until she returns income to the operation that is another roughly 730 days. Using the low end of the scale at a dollar a day you have 1460 dollars in that heifer that has produced nothing. Realistically cost run closer to 1.50 a day so that puts you 2190 in the hole. If she falls over dead there is no tax advantage left in her as she came free by IRS rules, all you can write off is operating cost.
The better cow has depreciation value as well giving you a higher return on your invested income.
Secondly unless your a large operation that can raise a true F-1 using a terminal sire your are leaving money on the table and not running a better cow.
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Re: Making the best black baldy cattle

Postby elkwc » Sat May 20, 2017 8:29 am

Caustic Burno wrote:
elkwc wrote:
Caustic Burno wrote:There is no financial advantage to retaining in the commercial operation.


It is different for everyone and also the area a person lives in makes a difference which is best. We have found in our situation it is cheaper for us to retain heifers and we also have a better idea what kind of cow they will make. Less culling. Like I stated before I purchased some for myself over the last 18 months. Have talked to several others that have also while trying to rebuild following the drought. Even buying the top dollar "Northern replacements" most have experienced a considerably higher cull rate than they do on their own retained heifers. I will be culling some I bought. The jury is still out on a few. I did buy some proven registered cows 4-5 y/o for about what a 2 y/0 bred would cost and they have worked out good. But unless something from a very reputable breeder comes available with a mother I can look at I hope I'm done buying any replacements. Again I maybe pickier than many are.


Retaining has looser all over it by the time you get a heifer to production you have 2K in her.
You have fed two cows for two years her dam and her with no return in capital. Heifers bought or raised are always a crap shoot no matter where they come from.
The purchased heifer starts off with a tax advantage secondly you don't have two cows not contributing to the bottom line for two years.

Don't understand how you figure you have two cows not contributing. Her dam is still having calves. I know many very successful commercial cattlemen who have bought and paid for ranches and they firmly believe in retaining heifers. If a breeder wants a consistent herd producing quality uniform calves in my opinion you need to retain your females so there is some consistency in breeding and type. Again what works for one don't for another. I can tell you we don't have 2K in the heifers we retain.
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Re: Making the best black baldy cattle

Postby elkwc » Sat May 20, 2017 8:32 am

Post Oak wrote:I will retain heifers instead of purchasing heifers unless I am in a stage of rapid expansion. Retained heifers already know where the fences are and they are already adapted to my program. After generations of retaining heifers, the culling percentage decreases. Retaining heifers keeps the herd closed (except for a new bull) and that helps to safeguard the health of the herd.


Very well stated. +1
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Re: Making the best black baldy cattle

Postby Caustic Burno » Sat May 20, 2017 8:43 am

Very easy what money did the dam put in your pocket over the last couple of years . None is the answer same for the retained heifer none. What is even worse the retained heifer has no value unless you sell her.
Seriously if you don't understand the true cost of retaining you are leaving lots of money on the table.
Retaining for genetics in a seedstock operation makes perfect sense.
In the terminal cow calf commercial operation has looser written all over it.
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Re: Making the best black baldy cattle

Postby elkwc » Sat May 20, 2017 9:08 am

Caustic Burno wrote:Very easy what money did the dam put in your pocket over the last couple of years . None is the answer same for the retained heifer none. What is even worse the retained heifer has no value unless you sell her.
Seriously if you don't understand the true cost of retaining you are leaving lots of money on the table.
Retaining for genetics in a seedstock operation makes perfect sense.
In the terminal cow calf commercial operation has looser written all over it.


Again we are all entitled to our opinion. If I sell the heifer I raise and then have to go buy a replacement heifer,develop and breed her I haven't gained anything. When the cattle we sell are at the top the day we sell them we know we are doing something right. Like many we have proved we can retain a heifer(know what she is and will likely do)and develop her for far less than we can go buy one either just before or just after she calves. If there was no money in developing heifers there wouldn't be so many doing it. By retaining heifers we know the family history on lets us continue to raise calves that will sell at the top end and reduces our cull rate considerably. It might not be the best for you but for us it makes us the most money.
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Re: Making the best black baldy cattle

Postby elkwc » Sat May 20, 2017 9:13 am

Caustic Burno wrote:Very easy what money did the dam put in your pocket over the last couple of years . None is the answer same for the retained heifer none. What is even worse the retained heifer has no value unless you sell her.
Seriously if you don't understand the true cost of retaining you are leaving lots of money on the table.
Retaining for genetics in a seedstock operation makes perfect sense.
In the terminal cow calf commercial operation has looser written all over it.


The cow only misses putting money in my pocket one year and not two. And the other thing is any excess heifers we retain and develop we can make more money on than if we sold them as weaning calves. At least at this time in this area that is the fact if a person puts good info in when using that sharp pencil.
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Re: Making the best black baldy cattle

Postby Caustic Burno » Sat May 20, 2017 9:20 am

elkwc wrote:
Caustic Burno wrote:Very easy what money did the dam put in your pocket over the last couple of years . None is the answer same for the retained heifer none. What is even worse the retained heifer has no value unless you sell her.
Seriously if you don't understand the true cost of retaining you are leaving lots of money on the table.
Retaining for genetics in a seedstock operation makes perfect sense.
In the terminal cow calf commercial operation has looser written all over it.


Again we are all entitled to our opinion. If I sell the heifer I raise and then have to go buy a replacement heifer,develop and breed her I haven't gained anything. When the cattle we sell are at the top the day we sell them we know we are doing something right. Like many we have proved we can retain a heifer(know what she is and will likely do)and develop her for far less than we can go buy one either just before or just after she calves. If there was no money in developing heifers there wouldn't be so many doing it. By retaining heifers we know the family history on lets us continue to raise calves that will sell at the top end and reduces our cull rate considerably. It might not be the best for you but for us it makes us the most money.

You really don't understand the economics. Yes the heifer you sold is used to purchase a better cow a true F-1 that raises more pounds along that it actually has value besides input cost. The purchased heifer has depreciation value and you can write off your loss in event she is a dud.
The purchased heifer is cheaper to put into production as she has depreciation on dollars invested until she returns on investment. The retained only has input cost.
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Re: Making the best black baldy cattle

Postby Caustic Burno » Sat May 20, 2017 9:25 am

elkwc wrote:
Caustic Burno wrote:Very easy what money did the dam put in your pocket over the last couple of years . None is the answer same for the retained heifer none. What is even worse the retained heifer has no value unless you sell her.
Seriously if you don't understand the true cost of retaining you are leaving lots of money on the table.
Retaining for genetics in a seedstock operation makes perfect sense.
In the terminal cow calf commercial operation has looser written all over it.


The cow only misses putting money in my pocket one year and not two. And the other thing is any excess heifers we retain and develop we can make more money on than if we sold them as weaning calves. At least at this time in this area that is the fact if a person puts good info in when using that sharp pencil.


Wrong again you have two years input cost for one calf out of the dam as well as two years input cost out of the heifer on a maybe.
You lost one calf to sell to return to the bottom line possibly two with no depreciation value.
Retained heifer = lost sale+4 years input cost before any return on investment.
There is nothing wrong with retaining heifers as long as you truly understand the cost. Retaining is not cheaper
to the bottom line in pounds or dollars.
Last edited by Caustic Burno on Sat May 20, 2017 9:33 am, edited 1 time in total.
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