Are they worth the investment?

Discuss the advantages and disadvantages of your favorite breed.

xbredcattle
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Are they worth the investment?

Postby xbredcattle » Fri Jul 20, 2018 11:43 am

I'm looking for some input here from guys/gals with long standing operations consisting of half blooded brahman cattle in the South
I had a pretty long winded conversation with a cousin of mine about the initial input cost of F1 cows vs your average commercial cow purchased from the sale barn
We're both young (late 20's) and have small scale operations of around 35 cows.

He's of the belief that buying an f1 for a premium is ridiculous because "all she'll ever give you is a calf - same as any cheaper cow from the sale barn"

I'm of the opinion that f1 cattle hold their value....not cheap when you buy and not cheap when you sell...
We're hitting 100 degrees in Louisiana right now and an F1 will still be up hustling and raising a good calf

Anyone here had the same conversation with fellow cattleman/cattlewomen? :tiphat:
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Re: Are they worth the investment?

Postby Dsteim » Fri Jul 20, 2018 1:23 pm

Why don't you just buy a Brahman bull and retain F1 replacements? That'd be a whole lot cheaper.
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Re: Are they worth the investment?

Postby JMJ Farms » Fri Jul 20, 2018 1:47 pm

Dsteim wrote:Why don't you just buy a Brahman bull and retain F1 replacements? That'd be a whole lot cheaper.


I’m not so sure it is in my case. I have some Brahman cows running with a hereford bull. I love the F1s. But in my experience by the time you buy the cows, get the calf, take a price cut in the steers, get the heifers old enough to breed, (most Brahman and Brahman/crosses don’t seem to breed unless they’re about 2), actually get them bred, and get a calf to wean..... you’re 4 years into the process before you see any return on investment other than the steers you have sold. I also find that my Brahmans need to be in real good shape to breed consistently.
Looking back I wish I’d have made a road trip and bought some.

But I do love the F1 tigers/Bradfords. And I only have a few purebreds to raise some replacements out of so it’s not breaking the bank. If I wanted 20 or so F1s I’d just buy them. Unless I had a real good bull I’d probably buy them bred or AI’ed.

One more thing worth mentioning. A fair portion will have huge bottle tits later on in age. I’m sure a lot of this is genetic. Probably could research bloodlines and maybe curb this problem to a degree whether you were buying or raising. Said that to say that longevity is one of the big perks of the tigers. Bottle tits at 8 years old would really hurt your long term plan. So it would be worth trying to avoid.
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Re: Are they worth the investment?

Postby TennesseeTuxedo » Fri Jul 20, 2018 1:52 pm

You can do no better than Brahman or Brahman influence cattle in the south land.

You heard it here first.
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Re: Are they worth the investment?

Postby Brute 23 » Fri Jul 20, 2018 1:53 pm

Although I do believe F1 cattle have a slightly higher value be leary of the "premium" price tags. A lot of the F1 cattle I see marketed do not justify their advertised cost.

From a practical stand point the 3/8, 5/8, 7/8 crosses can be just as good IMO and don't carry the price tag. People in the south have been running Brahman influenced cross bred cattle for a long time. A good Brahman bull can put you in that business for a fraction of the cost.

At the end of the day... buy quality cattle at the right price and you will be ok.

They are having record high temps in north Texas. I bet there are a lot of tanks full of cattle. I just got done dropping some corn off at the ranch and the Brahmans were out grazing and milking calves. The Hereford bull on them was watching from a shad tree near by. :)
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Re: Are they worth the investment?

Postby Brute 23 » Fri Jul 20, 2018 2:11 pm

Dsteim wrote:Why don't you just buy a Brahman bull and retain F1 replacements? That'd be a whole lot cheaper.


That is what I would do. Buy an older "used" Brahman bull and put him out for a couple years to get replacements and bounce him. There are good deals to be had on Brahman bulls because most people retain so many heifers. Every 5-10 years I would do it again.

Producing your own F1s requires a HUGE investment in space, time, and capital. Its a VERY long term investment.
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Re: Are they worth the investment?

Postby xbredcattle » Fri Jul 20, 2018 3:17 pm

Brute 23 wrote:Although I do believe F1 cattle have a slightly higher value be leary of the "premium" price tags. A lot of the F1 cattle I see marketed do not justify their advertised cost.

From a practical stand point the 3/8, 5/8, 7/8 crosses can be just as good IMO and don't carry the price tag. People in the south have been running Brahman influenced cross bred cattle for a long time. A good Brahman bull can put you in that business for a fraction of the cost.

At the end of the day... buy quality cattle at the right price and you will be ok.

They are having record high temps in north Texas. I bet there are a lot of tanks full of cattle. I just got done dropping some corn off at the ranch and the Brahmans were out grazing and milking calves. The Hereford bull on them was watching from a shad tree near by. :)


I agree on the sometimes bloated price tags - I've been to special sales where 3 or 4 potential buyers get into an ego contest on who has the larger checkbook. Two years ago I watched an older gentleman pay $3500 for short bred f1s.
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Re: Are they worth the investment?

Postby xbredcattle » Fri Jul 20, 2018 3:20 pm

JMJ Farms wrote:
Dsteim wrote:Why don't you just buy a Brahman bull and retain F1 replacements? That'd be a whole lot cheaper.


I’m not so sure it is in my case. I have some Brahman cows running with a hereford bull. I love the F1s. But in my experience by the time you buy the cows, get the calf, take a price cut in the steers, get the heifers old enough to breed, (most Brahman and Brahman/crosses don’t seem to breed unless they’re about 2), actually get them bred, and get a calf to wean..... you’re 4 years into the process before you see any return on investment other than the steers you have sold. I also find that my Brahmans need to be in real good shape to breed consistently.
Looking back I wish I’d have made a road trip and bought some.

But I do love the F1 tigers/Bradfords. And I only have a few purebreds to raise some replacements out of so it’s not breaking the bank. If I wanted 20 or so F1s I’d just buy them. Unless I had a real good bull I’d probably buy them bred or AI’ed.

One more thing worth mentioning. A fair portion will have huge bottle tits later on in age. I’m sure a lot of this is genetic. Probably could research bloodlines and maybe curb this problem to a degree whether you were buying or raising. Said that to say that longevity is one of the big perks of the tigers. Bottle tits at 8 years old would really hurt your long term plan. So it would be worth trying to avoid.


I know what you mean! I have a weakness for a uniform herd of dark striped cows!!!
It would be cool to know the prevalence of bottle tits on the f1's off either Hereford or Brahman dams...
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Re: Are they worth the investment?

Postby JMJ Farms » Fri Jul 20, 2018 3:21 pm

xbredcattle wrote:
Brute 23 wrote:Although I do believe F1 cattle have a slightly higher value be leary of the "premium" price tags. A lot of the F1 cattle I see marketed do not justify their advertised cost.

From a practical stand point the 3/8, 5/8, 7/8 crosses can be just as good IMO and don't carry the price tag. People in the south have been running Brahman influenced cross bred cattle for a long time. A good Brahman bull can put you in that business for a fraction of the cost.

At the end of the day... buy quality cattle at the right price and you will be ok.

They are having record high temps in north Texas. I bet there are a lot of tanks full of cattle. I just got done dropping some corn off at the ranch and the Brahmans were out grazing and milking calves. The Hereford bull on them was watching from a shad tree near by. :)


I agree on the sometimes bloated price tags - I've been to special sales where 3 or 4 potential buyers get into an ego contest on who has the larger checkbook. Two years ago I watched an older gentleman pay $3500 for short bred f1s.


Spending habits like that makes you wonder how an older feller like that ever got a padded checkbook to begin with.
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Re: Are they worth the investment?

Postby JMJ Farms » Fri Jul 20, 2018 3:27 pm

xbredcattle wrote:
JMJ Farms wrote:
Dsteim wrote:Why don't you just buy a Brahman bull and retain F1 replacements? That'd be a whole lot cheaper.


I’m not so sure it is in my case. I have some Brahman cows running with a hereford bull. I love the F1s. But in my experience by the time you buy the cows, get the calf, take a price cut in the steers, get the heifers old enough to breed, (most Brahman and Brahman/crosses don’t seem to breed unless they’re about 2), actually get them bred, and get a calf to wean..... you’re 4 years into the process before you see any return on investment other than the steers you have sold. I also find that my Brahmans need to be in real good shape to breed consistently.
Looking back I wish I’d have made a road trip and bought some.

But I do love the F1 tigers/Bradfords. And I only have a few purebreds to raise some replacements out of so it’s not breaking the bank. If I wanted 20 or so F1s I’d just buy them. Unless I had a real good bull I’d probably buy them bred or AI’ed.

One more thing worth mentioning. A fair portion will have huge bottle tits later on in age. I’m sure a lot of this is genetic. Probably could research bloodlines and maybe curb this problem to a degree whether you were buying or raising. Said that to say that longevity is one of the big perks of the tigers. Bottle tits at 8 years old would really hurt your long term plan. So it would be worth trying to avoid.


I know what you mean! I have a weakness for a uniform herd of dark striped cows!!!
It would be cool to know the prevalence of bottle tits on the f1's off either Hereford or Brahman dams...


Me too. What I am really a sucker for is those black white faced calves out of an F1 braford cow and a good long black bull. Makes my mouth water.

I’m not sure which side the prevalence comes from. I haven’t been in that game long enough to form a conclusion based on observation. But I’ve noticed it through a neighbors herd. We put them in the chute and drain them down with a canula needle once the calf is around a month or so old and usually the calf can keep up then. This is only a temporary solution and the problem usually worsens each passing year but I guess you do what you gotta do to try and stay in the black. Boy those Braford cows can show out in a chute!
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Re: Are they worth the investment?

Postby xbredcattle » Fri Jul 20, 2018 3:49 pm

JMJ Farms wrote:
xbredcattle wrote:
JMJ Farms wrote:
I’m not so sure it is in my case. I have some Brahman cows running with a hereford bull. I love the F1s. But in my experience by the time you buy the cows, get the calf, take a price cut in the steers, get the heifers old enough to breed, (most Brahman and Brahman/crosses don’t seem to breed unless they’re about 2), actually get them bred, and get a calf to wean..... you’re 4 years into the process before you see any return on investment other than the steers you have sold. I also find that my Brahmans need to be in real good shape to breed consistently.
Looking back I wish I’d have made a road trip and bought some.

But I do love the F1 tigers/Bradfords. And I only have a few purebreds to raise some replacements out of so it’s not breaking the bank. If I wanted 20 or so F1s I’d just buy them. Unless I had a real good bull I’d probably buy them bred or AI’ed.

One more thing worth mentioning. A fair portion will have huge bottle tits later on in age. I’m sure a lot of this is genetic. Probably could research bloodlines and maybe curb this problem to a degree whether you were buying or raising. Said that to say that longevity is one of the big perks of the tigers. Bottle tits at 8 years old would really hurt your long term plan. So it would be worth trying to avoid.


I know what you mean! I have a weakness for a uniform herd of dark striped cows!!!
It would be cool to know the prevalence of bottle tits on the f1's off either Hereford or Brahman dams...


Me too. What I am really a sucker for is those black white faced calves out of an F1 braford cow and a good long black bull. Makes my mouth water.

I’m not sure which side the prevalence comes from. I haven’t been in that game long enough to form a conclusion based on observation. But I’ve noticed it through a neighbors herd. We put them in the chute and drain them down with a canula needle once the calf is around a month or so old and usually the calf can keep up then. This is only a temporary solution and the problem usually worsens each passing year but I guess you do what you gotta do to try and stay in the black. Boy those Braford cows can show out in a chute!


Yes they can! The times that they sull in the chute and just have that low, continuous gutteral (spelling) growl....you just know they're wanting to hook your clothes off.
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Re: Are they worth the investment?

Postby ALACOWMAN » Fri Jul 20, 2018 4:21 pm

xbredcattle wrote:
JMJ Farms wrote:
xbredcattle wrote:
I know what you mean! I have a weakness for a uniform herd of dark striped cows!!!
It would be cool to know the prevalence of bottle tits on the f1's off either Hereford or Brahman dams...


Me too. What I am really a sucker for is those black white faced calves out of an F1 braford cow and a good long black bull. Makes my mouth water.

I’m not sure which side the prevalence comes from. I haven’t been in that game long enough to form a conclusion based on observation. But I’ve noticed it through a neighbors herd. We put them in the chute and drain them down with a canula needle once the calf is around a month or so old and usually the calf can keep up then. This is only a temporary solution and the problem usually worsens each passing year but I guess you do what you gotta do to try and stay in the black. Boy those Braford cows can show out in a chute!


Yes they can! The times that they sull in the chute and just have that low, continuous gutteral (spelling) growl....you just know they're wanting to hook your clothes off.

The bottle teats can come from either side..lota Herefords out there with bad udders,as Brahman.best to do your homework before combining the 2.. That coupled with heavy milking of the F1 will show up on you.fall calving will help some,the lush spring grass and calving can blow a lot of quarters out .if you buy any from a breeder best to grill the heck out of him...its your money and once those calfs hit the ground that moma usually ain't in a neighborly mood, to be messed with.. Nothing more nerve wreaking then to try to milk out a rattlesnake...
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Re: Are they worth the investment?

Postby Brute 23 » Fri Jul 20, 2018 4:37 pm

Bad teats are every where. In my limited experience if you take any cow producing a lot of milk your odds of a blown out bag will increase with age.
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Re: Are they worth the investment?

Postby WalnutCrest » Fri Jul 20, 2018 5:14 pm

The price actually paid for the "better" F1s vs. the price actually paid for the "lesser" sale barn cows really matters.

A theoretical conversation is just that ... theory.

Use actual numbers, set some informed assumptions, run the numbers ... AND VERY CRITICALLY ... estimate the ranges in the variables so you can see how quickly things can go from profitable to unprofitable; which variables need to be different than expected in order for your planned profit to turn to a loss.
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Re: Are they worth the investment?

Postby Lucky » Sat Jul 21, 2018 12:42 am

TennesseeTuxedo wrote:You can do no better than Brahman or Brahman influence cattle in the south land.

You heard it here first.



Please school me on the benefits of having high dollar cattle that breed every 18 months and have bottle teats at 6-7 years old.... over say angus or even brangus cross cows.
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