Goodbye Gimli

Discuss the advantages and disadvantages of your favorite breed.

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Nesikep
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Re: Goodbye Gimli

Postby Nesikep » Fri Aug 17, 2018 11:12 am

It would be immoral if Gimli had an encounter with a bucket of black shoe polish to hide the white... As it stands, if the buyer likes him, ain't nothing wrong with that.

If we're going to talk about color patterns in Simmental... Perhaps we ought to see what they once were.. I think they looked just fine back then.. I think the modern Simms shouldn't have the same name.
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Re: Goodbye Gimli

Postby 76 Bar » Fri Aug 17, 2018 11:57 am

I think the modern Simms shouldn't have the same name.

Great post Nesi. And I dare say...Applicable to many of the evolved modern breeds.

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Re: Goodbye Gimli

Postby Bright Raven » Fri Aug 17, 2018 12:04 pm

76 Bar wrote:
I think the modern Simms shouldn't have the same name.

Great post Nesi. And I dare say...Applicable to many of the evolved modern breeds.


Does it matter what they are called? Let's say that the American Simmental Association changes the name of the breed to Neanderthals, naming them for the Neandertal Valley of Germany rather than the Simmi Valley of Switzerland. What changes? The animals in the registry just simply got a name change. The phenotype and genotype stayed the same.
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Re: Goodbye Gimli

Postby TennesseeTuxedo » Fri Aug 17, 2018 1:32 pm

Bright Raven wrote:
76 Bar wrote:
I think the modern Simms shouldn't have the same name.

Great post Nesi. And I dare say...Applicable to many of the evolved modern breeds.


Does it matter what they are called? Let's say that the American Simmental Association changes the name of the breed to Neanderthals, naming them for the Neandertal Valley of Germany rather than the Simmi Valley of Switzerland. What changes? The animals in the registry just simply got a name change. The phenotype and genotype stayed the same.


You have got to be honest Rondo, the modern Simmi looks nothing like his ancestors.

Angus might be somewhat larger but are still black (except for the freak red ones) and marble better than any other breed.
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Re: Goodbye Gimli

Postby Nesikep » Fri Aug 17, 2018 1:50 pm

Bright Raven wrote:
76 Bar wrote:
I think the modern Simms shouldn't have the same name.

Great post Nesi. And I dare say...Applicable to many of the evolved modern breeds.


Does it matter what they are called? Let's say that the American Simmental Association changes the name of the breed to Neanderthals, naming them for the Neandertal Valley of Germany rather than the Simmi Valley of Switzerland. What changes? The animals in the registry just simply got a name change. The phenotype and genotype stayed the same.

My point is neither the genotype nor the phenotype has stayed the same by a LONG SHOT
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Re: Goodbye Gimli

Postby Bright Raven » Fri Aug 17, 2018 2:04 pm

TennesseeTuxedo wrote:
Bright Raven wrote:
76 Bar wrote:Great post Nesi. And I dare say...Applicable to many of the evolved modern breeds.


Does it matter what they are called? Let's say that the American Simmental Association changes the name of the breed to Neanderthals, naming them for the Neandertal Valley of Germany rather than the Simmi Valley of Switzerland. What changes? The animals in the registry just simply got a name change. The phenotype and genotype stayed the same.


You have got to be honest Rondo, the modern Simmi looks nothing like his ancestors.

Angus might be somewhat larger but are still black (except for the freak red ones) and marble better than any other breed.


They have changed but I don't see what benefit changing the name accomplishes.
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Re: Goodbye Gimli

Postby Bright Raven » Fri Aug 17, 2018 4:11 pm

Nesikep wrote:
Bright Raven wrote:
76 Bar wrote:Great post Nesi. And I dare say...Applicable to many of the evolved modern breeds.


Does it matter what they are called? Let's say that the American Simmental Association changes the name of the breed to Neanderthals, naming them for the Neandertal Valley of Germany rather than the Simmi Valley of Switzerland. What changes? The animals in the registry just simply got a name change. The phenotype and genotype stayed the same.

My point is neither the genotype nor the phenotype has stayed the same by a LONG SHOT


Efrem, that change in phenotype and genotype was a positive change. The name of the breed does not need to be changed to commemorate that improvement.
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Re: Goodbye Gimli

Postby elkwc » Fri Aug 17, 2018 4:57 pm

Bright Raven wrote:
Nesikep wrote:
Bright Raven wrote:
Does it matter what they are called? Let's say that the American Simmental Association changes the name of the breed to Neanderthals, naming them for the Neandertal Valley of Germany rather than the Simmi Valley of Switzerland. What changes? The animals in the registry just simply got a name change. The phenotype and genotype stayed the same.

My point is neither the genotype nor the phenotype has stayed the same by a LONG SHOT


Efrem, that change in phenotype and genotype was a positive change. The name of the breed does not need to be changed to commemorate that improvement.


BR again that is a personal opinion. IMO the Simmi and Chars have lost some of the qualities that made them attractive to a commercial breeder. I've talked to other commercial breeders who feel the same. The phenotype now is more closely aligned with that of a good Angus or Hereford. Frame, muslcing and growth have been moderated enough where those qualities aren't the drawing attraction they used to be. I like many of the Black Simmi's I see on here. But still debating that they offer me something that I can't get within the Angus and Hereford breeds. You have to be selective when using either breed. The Angus in many cases have lost their marbling advantage and the Herefords have lost many qualities with the impurities that have been introduced. But there are still lines in both breeds that offer the commercial cowman what he needs. I have a 2 y/o bull that has as much natural growth as any bull I've looked at in 5 years. The Simmi's and Chars don't offer the increased weaning weight advantage they once did. Again these are my opinions. I respect others but I say they aren't the same as the original Simmi by any means and don't bring the same qualities to the table.

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Re: Goodbye Gimli

Postby Bright Raven » Fri Aug 17, 2018 5:14 pm

elkwc wrote:
Bright Raven wrote:
Nesikep wrote:My point is neither the genotype nor the phenotype has stayed the same by a LONG SHOT


Efrem, that change in phenotype and genotype was a positive change. The name of the breed does not need to be changed to commemorate that improvement.


BR again that is a personal opinion. IMO the Simmi and Chars have lost some of the qualities that made them attractive to a commercial breeder. I've talked to other commercial breeders who feel the same. The phenotype now is more closely aligned with that of a good Angus or Hereford. Frame, muslcing and growth have been moderated enough where those qualities aren't the drawing attraction they used to be. I like many of the Black Simmi's I see on here. But still debating that they offer me something that I can't get within the Angus and Hereford breeds. You have to be selective when using either breed. The Angus in many cases have lost their marbling advantage and the Herefords have lost many qualities with the impurities that have been introduced. But there are still lines in both breeds that offer the commercial cowman what he needs. I have a 2 y/o bull that has as much natural growth as any bull I've looked at in 5 years. The Simmi's and Chars don't offer the increased weaning weight advantage they once did. Again these are my opinions. I respect others but I say they aren't the same as the original Simmi by any means and don't bring the same qualities to the table.


I appreciate observations like that.

I will have to say that is not what I see in Kentucky. The Simmental cattle here have bone and muscle.. My first experience with Simmental cattle was through Rocking P Cattle company. Jeanne can provide testimony on their position in the Simmental Breed. Chan Phillips has been rated as one of the nation's top cattle judges. Doing the National Stock Show in Denver many times. His father Larry who is extremely ill, bred Angus cattle for 60 years. He resisted going to Simmental. Chan and Keith pushed. Now Larry is a firm Simmental convert. The Simmentals perform better on our pastures. Produce more pounds and according to them do it with more calving ease. Their Simmentals have about the same or maybe a slightly smaller frame than the Angus here in my region. I think the Simmental put on more muscle, grow out faster, and are good performers on our pastures. Granted, Kentucky has a great climate for cattle and is vastly different that Kansas and Oklahoma, even Missouri.

Edited to add: I don't think our views are far apart. The qualities of Angus and Simmental are similar and frankly, I could be happy growing Angus. I like some of the Angus I see at Boyd cattle company.
Last edited by Bright Raven on Fri Aug 17, 2018 5:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Goodbye Gimli

Postby Muddy » Fri Aug 17, 2018 5:20 pm

Black & Red Simmentals are good cattle but they should not be called Simmentals. Same for the blackized breeds.

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Re: Goodbye Gimli

Postby Bright Raven » Fri Aug 17, 2018 5:22 pm

Muddy wrote:Black & Red Simmentals are good cattle but they should not be called Simmentals. Same for the blackized breeds.


Muddy, I would not have a moment's concern if they changed their name. I just don't see what it would accomplish.
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Re: Goodbye Gimli

Postby True Grit Farms » Fri Aug 17, 2018 8:35 pm

Maybe the Simmental breed is just making a full circle. In 20 - 30 years they may look like they did 20 - 30 years ago.
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Re: Goodbye Gimli

Postby Nesikep » Sat Aug 18, 2018 2:23 am

The breed wasn't "improved", it was absolutely changed to be unrecognizable in form and function... Perhaps it got to be a bit a better beef breed, but it lost its other two purposes
This one has a lifetime production of 210,000 lbs of milk at 4% fat (13 years)
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And at this elevation, it doesn't look like they're terribly spoiled with lush grass.. they certainly didn't spend their day at a grain bin either.. grain was expensive.. they probably got a bit as a treat.
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Bull on the left seems to have lots of meat to him
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Re: Goodbye Gimli

Postby Nesikep » Sat Aug 18, 2018 2:26 am

Muddy wrote:Black & Red Simmentals are good cattle but they should not be called Simmentals. Same for the blackized breeds.

I bet even experienced cattlemen would have a hard time picking the breeds if you had a black limo, black angus, black Simm, and black Gelbvieh all side by side
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Re: Goodbye Gimli

Postby Bright Raven » Sat Aug 18, 2018 6:16 am

Nesikep wrote:
Muddy wrote:Black & Red Simmentals are good cattle but they should not be called Simmentals. Same for the blackized breeds.

I bet even experienced cattlemen would have a hard time picking the breeds if you had a black limo, black angus, black Simm, and black Gelbvieh all side by side


Efrem. There is substance in what you say. Furthermore, it should not surprise anyone that beef breeds are becoming more alike. Think of the four breeds you mentioned, breeders of each of those breeds are breeding to meet (or could I say meat) current market demands.

Just as a sidenote: You might be surprised how some folks can still tell those breeds apart. Fire Sweep can. I have seen her do it several times. I bet there are guys like Alacowman who can too. I have seen him do it from only pictures posted on this forum.
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