Goodbye Gimli

Discuss the advantages and disadvantages of your favorite breed.

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Nesikep
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Re: Goodbye Gimli

Postby Nesikep » Sat Aug 18, 2018 10:32 pm

elkwc wrote:
Muddy wrote:Anyone wanna make a bet that Elkc, Fire Sweep and Alacowman can tell a Black Angus from the rest of black breeds? By the black breeds, I meant ALL of them.
From my observations I imagine Jeanne can also. And most order/feeder buyers I know can in the few seconds they are in the ring. Of course that is how they make their living.

They're looking for quality cattle.. How does this work for CAB? I can't remember, is a black hide all it takes? personal judgement on if it has a certain angus percentage? Or does it take a paper trail (I've never seen that at our auctions)
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Re: Goodbye Gimli

Postby Muddy » Sat Aug 18, 2018 11:18 pm

Nesikep wrote:
elkwc wrote:
Muddy wrote:Anyone wanna make a bet that Elkc, Fire Sweep and Alacowman can tell a Black Angus from the rest of black breeds? By the black breeds, I meant ALL of them.
From my observations I imagine Jeanne can also. And most order/feeder buyers I know can in the few seconds they are in the ring. Of course that is how they make their living.

They're looking for quality cattle.. How does this work for CAB? I can't remember, is a black hide all it takes? personal judgement on if it has a certain angus percentage? Or does it take a paper trail (I've never seen that at our auctions)

All I know is that they didn't do DNA testing their black calves they brought from the sale barns...these folks who can pick out an Angus bull from the other black breeds....are full of themselves.
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Re: Goodbye Gimli

Postby Supa Dexta » Sun Aug 19, 2018 6:05 am

I have angus cross and sim cross black calves here, easily tell the difference on head shape alone. But I also know which cows were at what pastures, with what bulls... for back up.
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Re: Goodbye Gimli

Postby elkwc » Sun Aug 19, 2018 11:08 am

Nesikep wrote:
elkwc wrote:
Muddy wrote:Anyone wanna make a bet that Elkc, Fire Sweep and Alacowman can tell a Black Angus from the rest of black breeds? By the black breeds, I meant ALL of them.
From my observations I imagine Jeanne can also. And most order/feeder buyers I know can in the few seconds they are in the ring. Of course that is how they make their living.

They're looking for quality cattle.. How does this work for CAB? I can't remember, is a black hide all it takes? personal judgement on if it has a certain angus percentage? Or does it take a paper trail (I've never seen that at our auctions)


I understand it is supposed to be 51% black hided. I know of a few feeders who were surprised when some of theirs was accepted and they had a small percentage of Angus at the most in them.

I won't claim to be able to tell you what breeds is in a bull. What I do feel I can tell and what I make buying decisions on is if an Angus or a Hereford bull is at least fairly pure. There are many features I look at. I was fortunate that when I was young I was exposed to thousands of old foundation cattle of both breeds. Both breeds had certain features which can be mainly found in herds that linebreed older lines today. Again this is JMO and I don't try to force it on anyone. But I do have order/feeder buyer friends who are very good at it. I have seen them not bid on certain groups because of what they saw and later when I would talk to the seller I would find they were correct. They were crosses. Black hides many things to some but to the trained eye it don't hide as much.
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Re: Goodbye Gimli

Postby Muddy » Sun Aug 19, 2018 11:49 am

Elkc, what traits that separate Angus from other black breeds that has Angus genetics?
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Re: Goodbye Gimli

Postby elkwc » Sun Aug 19, 2018 12:31 pm

Muddy wrote:Elkc, what traits that separate Angus from other black breeds that has Angus genetics?


The whole animal. From the feet up. Many times the obvious are the head, neck, muscle pattern and overall type. This is a Hereford but had a young breeder call me about a Hereford bull he bought this spring of old bloodlines. Said his neck was so thick they couldn't catch his head in a manual chute. Many of the Angus and Hereford bulls of the past had that. They have that masculine look to their head and neck. Today many have what I call a dairy head and neck. I feel certain the 2 y/o Angus I retained and using isn't pure. He could of been registered but he has too many features that don't fit what I call a pure Angus. I feel he will help us or I wouldn't have kept him but I don't try to fool myself and say he is pure. If he will sire a uniform set of calves and pass along his growth and bone then he will likely stay around a while. The same with the Hereford bull I bought. I didn't catch a crossed bull in his bloodlines when I did a cell phone search. Again as long as I have no issues and I get the desired hybrid vigor he will likely stay a few years. If I don't get the vigor, or get solid black calves or experience genetic issues he will be gone. Again I accept he isn't pure although he has papers. I didn't feel he was when I looked at him but didn't find anything that stood out in a initial 3 generation search. Again he don't fit the pattern of an pure Hereford IMO. We each are entitled to our opinion and the right to express it. Doesn't make it right or wrong.
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Re: Goodbye Gimli

Postby 76 Bar » Mon Aug 20, 2018 10:24 am

For Nesi and inquiring minds...CAB specs:
https://www.certifiedangusbeef.com/brand/specs.php
The above was updated recently regarding regarding color e.g. excessive white:
http://www.uspremiumbeef.com/DocumentItem.aspx?ID=126
Commentary from Beef Magazine from March 2017.
https://www.beefmagazine.com/beef-quality/what-makes-fed-cattle-qualify-certified-angus-beef
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Re: Goodbye Gimli

Postby Bright Raven » Mon Aug 20, 2018 10:50 am

76 Bar wrote:For Nesi and inquiring minds...CAB specs:
https://www.certifiedangusbeef.com/brand/specs.php
The above was updated recently regarding regarding color e.g. excessive white:
http://www.uspremiumbeef.com/DocumentItem.aspx?ID=126
Commentary from Beef Magazine from March 2017.
https://www.beefmagazine.com/beef-quality/what-makes-fed-cattle-qualify-certified-angus-beef


The CAB topic has been discussed here previously. There are several threads on CAB. I just looked at one. I posted this in the thread below. CAB does not market beef. They market their Trademark.

Most of the users may know this but I was curious. In case anyone is interested.

Certified Angus Beef is a Limited Liability Company held as a subsidiary of the American Angus Association. According to the lady who just answered the phone at 330 345 2333, Wooster, Ohio, the LLC does not own, manage or market one single ounce of beef.

They market the CAR Trademark. They sell the rights to use their Trademark to companies in the meat packing industry who meet the Certified Angus Beef criteria. Those companies can then cut, package and sticker their product with the Certified Angus Beef registered Trademark.


viewtopic.php?f=6&t=109122&p=1415697&hilit=CAB#p1415697
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Re: Goodbye Gimli

Postby 76 Bar » Mon Aug 20, 2018 12:45 pm

Presumed the topic had been previously discussed. Nomenclature e.g. Certified Angus Beef is obviously a misnomer and patently erroneous. PT Barnum woulda loved it. ;-)
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Re: Goodbye Gimli

Postby Bright Raven » Mon Aug 20, 2018 12:48 pm

76 Bar wrote:Presumed the topic had been previously discussed. Nomenclature e.g. Certified Angus Beef is obviously a misnomer and patently erroneous. PT Barnum woulda loved it. ;-)


I understand your point but this is a capitalist nation. The practice of naming products with misleading labels to attract sales is as common as house flies.
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Re: Goodbye Gimli

Postby Muddy » Mon Aug 20, 2018 3:17 pm

76 Bar wrote:For Nesi and inquiring minds...CAB specs:
https://www.certifiedangusbeef.com/brand/specs.php
The above was updated recently regarding regarding color e.g. excessive white:
http://www.uspremiumbeef.com/DocumentItem.aspx?ID=126
Commentary from Beef Magazine from March 2017.
https://www.beefmagazine.com/beef-quality/what-makes-fed-cattle-qualify-certified-angus-beef

So basically most black breeds can meet all requirements of CAB, including the solid black crossbreds of the "forbidden" breeds?
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Re: Goodbye Gimli

Postby Bright Raven » Mon Aug 20, 2018 3:48 pm

Muddy wrote:
76 Bar wrote:For Nesi and inquiring minds...CAB specs:
https://www.certifiedangusbeef.com/brand/specs.php
The above was updated recently regarding regarding color e.g. excessive white:
http://www.uspremiumbeef.com/DocumentItem.aspx?ID=126
Commentary from Beef Magazine from March 2017.
https://www.beefmagazine.com/beef-quality/what-makes-fed-cattle-qualify-certified-angus-beef

So basically most black breeds can meet all requirements of CAB, including the solid black crossbreds of the "forbidden" breeds?


Muddy,

Yes. If it has the requisite proportion of black hide. You don't seem to grasp the concept? Only a person disconnected from the real world would entertain the idea that a vendor of beef products is going to DNA test every piece of meat that they market to confirm that it is derived from the Angus breed of cattle. The CAB is a TRADEMARK. Google trademark and learn what it means. The USPTO approves trademarks. They don't give a cup of cold water what breed meets the CAB criteria. They review the application for the trademark and determine if it is in compliance with federal regulations. What you are attempting to rationalize is that a TRADEMARK must be true to the words it employs - that is not the way it works. For example, if I submitted a request for a trademark as follows: CERTIFIED CAPE BUFFALO, and my criteria for that product was that it must have a white hide, they would have to approve that TRADEMARK. I could sell any white hided beef under that TRADEMARK.

Going a step further, where a company gets in trouble is with advertising. If a packer and marketer of CAB was to advertise that it cures genital psoriasis and that cannot be proven, then you have a problem. A big problem. Not with the USPTO, but with the FDA.
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Re: Goodbye Gimli

Postby True Grit Farms » Mon Aug 20, 2018 4:04 pm

You make things hard to understand.

To earn the Certified Angus Beef ® brand name, cattle must first be Angus-influenced, with a predominantly solid black coat. Then, beef must pass our 10 quality standards:

Marbling and Maturity
1. Modest or higher marbling – for the taste that ensures customer satisfaction

2. Medium or fine marbling texture – the white "flecks of flavor" in the beef that ensure consistent flavor and juiciness in every bite

3. Only cattle harvested younger than 30 months of age qualify as “A” maturity – for superior color, texture and tenderness

Consistent Sizing
4. 10- to 16-square-inch ribeye area

5. 1,050-pound hot carcass weight or less

6. Less than 1-inch fat thickness

Quality Appearance and Tenderness
7. Superior muscling (restricts influence of dairy cattle)

8. Practically free of capillary ruptures (ensures the most visually appealing steak)

9. No dark cutters (ensures the most visually appealing steak)

10. No neck hump exceeding 2 inches (safeguards against cattle with more variability in tenderness)

CAB hurts those that raise mostly Angus influenced cattle. But the demand for CAB beef far exceeds the supply. There's plenty of places to sell heavily influenced Angus cattle for a premium. I deal with these folks.https://brasstownbeef.com
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Re: Goodbye Gimli

Postby Bright Raven » Mon Aug 20, 2018 4:49 pm

True Grit Farms wrote:You make things hard to understand.

To earn the Certified Angus Beef ® brand name, cattle must first be Angus-influenced, with a predominantly solid black coat. Then, beef must pass our 10 quality standards:

Marbling and Maturity
1. Modest or higher marbling – for the taste that ensures customer satisfaction

2. Medium or fine marbling texture – the white "flecks of flavor" in the beef that ensure consistent flavor and juiciness in every bite

3. Only cattle harvested younger than 30 months of age qualify as “A” maturity – for superior color, texture and tenderness

Consistent Sizing
4. 10- to 16-square-inch ribeye area

5. 1,050-pound hot carcass weight or less

6. Less than 1-inch fat thickness

Quality Appearance and Tenderness
7. Superior muscling (restricts influence of dairy cattle)

8. Practically free of capillary ruptures (ensures the most visually appealing steak)

9. No dark cutters (ensures the most visually appealing steak)

10. No neck hump exceeding 2 inches (safeguards against cattle with more variability in tenderness)

CAB hurts those that raise mostly Angus influenced cattle. But the demand for CAB beef far exceeds the supply. There's plenty of places to sell heavily influenced Angus cattle for a premium. I deal with these folks.https://brasstownbeef.com


I assumed he knew that from the links BAR posted. I took it that Muddy is looking for a "litmus" test. Such as a DNA test to "prove" that it is meat from an Angus Beef animal. That is not what CAB represents. If the CAB trademark holder was to say "this beef is guaranteed to be from an Angus beef animal" then that would be a problem. Their criteria - that you posted - does not state that.

The point is simple - folks are taking the Trademark literally instead of as a brand. That is all it is - a brand.
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Re: Goodbye Gimli

Postby sstterry » Mon Aug 20, 2018 4:56 pm

The whole CAB thing gripes my hide. Angus fell in disfavor in the 60's and early 70's because they were short and fat. A group of Angus breeders came up with the CAB marketing idea in the mid to late 70's. One of those guys was from Jonesboro, TN. They were more successful than they could ever imagine thanks in part to a Hardee's commercial that showed a Rancher eating a hamburger and saying that he could not believe that they were using real Angus beef. The public bought in and here we are!
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