Making the best black baldy cattle

Discuss the advantages and disadvantages of your favorite breed.

elkwc
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Re: Making the best black baldy cattle

Postby elkwc » Sat May 20, 2017 9:32 am

Caustic Burno wrote:
elkwc wrote:
Caustic Burno wrote:Very easy what money did the dam put in your pocket over the last couple of years . None is the answer same for the retained heifer none. What is even worse the retained heifer has no value unless you sell her.
Seriously if you don't understand the true cost of retaining you are leaving lots of money on the table.
Retaining for genetics in a seedstock operation makes perfect sense.
In the terminal cow calf commercial operation has looser written all over it.


The cow only misses putting money in my pocket one year and not two. And the other thing is any excess heifers we retain and develop we can make more money on than if we sold them as weaning calves. At least at this time in this area that is the fact if a person puts good info in when using that sharp pencil.


Wrong again you have two years input cost for one calf out of the dam as well as two years input cost out of the heifer on a maybe.
You lost one calf to sell to return to the bottom line possibly two with no depreciation value.
Retained heifer = lost sale+4 years input cost before any return on investment.


Not sure what math you are using but it isn't the real world books we retain on our cattle. Again it is obvious you aren't open to what works for others. That you believe one size fits all which it doesn't. We each have to use a method that makes us the most money and we have proven which makes the most money for us and works the best. If buying all of your replacements works better for you that is great. You continue doing that and we will continue retaining heifers and selling at the top of the market.
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Re: Making the best black baldy cattle

Postby Rafter S » Sat May 20, 2017 9:36 am

When I keep a heifer, maybe I didn't get any cash money from her dam that year, but I have increased my cattle numbers by one. Isn't that worth something?
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Re: Making the best black baldy cattle

Postby Caustic Burno » Sat May 20, 2017 9:42 am

Your the one that doesn't want to see the true cost. It hurts to realize your leaving money and on the table.
It is scientifically proven for the commercial cow calf operation is cheaper to buy replacements.
https://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/pdffiles/AN/AN16500.pdf
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Re: Making the best black baldy cattle

Postby Caustic Burno » Sat May 20, 2017 9:45 am

Rafter S wrote:When I keep a heifer, maybe I didn't get any cash money from her dam that year, but I have increased my cattle numbers by one. Isn't that worth something?

Not to the IRS she only has value unless you sell her. All of cost are written off in inputs.
The purchased heifer has depreciation and input write off making them cheaper to put into production versus the retained heifer that had no value.
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Re: Making the best black baldy cattle

Postby elkwc » Sat May 20, 2017 9:53 am

Caustic Burno wrote:Your the one that doesn't want to see the true cost. It hurts to realize your leaving money and on the table.
It is scientifically proven for the commercial cow calf operation is cheaper to buy replacements.
https://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/pdffiles/AN/AN16500.pdf


The improvement in my herd, the ease of handling them and the extra dollars I receive when they sell at the top of the market and I don't have to take a loss on culls offsets the possible gains you are talking about at least here it does. Maybe not in your world.
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Re: Making the best black baldy cattle

Postby Caustic Burno » Sat May 20, 2017 10:24 am

elkwc wrote:
Caustic Burno wrote:Your the one that doesn't want to see the true cost. It hurts to realize your leaving money and on the table.
It is scientifically proven for the commercial cow calf operation is cheaper to buy replacements.
https://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/pdffiles/AN/AN16500.pdf


The improvement in my herd, the ease of handling them and the extra dollars I receive when they sell at the top of the market and I don't have to take a loss on culls offsets the possible gains you are talking about at least here it does. Maybe not in your world.


That is like saying your the only one that raises quality cattle.
Purchasing the heifer I am a year ahead of you two if I buy the bred cow as well as having the write off in the event of death. Plus she returns the purchase price to me in depreciation while producing a salable product.
The retained heifer returns nothing to the bottom line in the event of death
plus has the loss of the dams production to the bottom line for that year.
Until you track the true cost to keep a cow standing in your pasture you have no idea how much the retained heifer really cost you.
Again if your shooting for genetic improvement it makes sense.
It doesn't pencil in the terminal cow/calf operation.
This is about money plain and simple.
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Re: Making the best black baldy cattle

Postby elkwc » Sat May 20, 2017 10:43 am

Caustic Burno wrote:
elkwc wrote:
Caustic Burno wrote:Your the one that doesn't want to see the true cost. It hurts to realize your leaving money and on the table.
It is scientifically proven for the commercial cow calf operation is cheaper to buy replacements.
https://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/pdffiles/AN/AN16500.pdf


The improvement in my herd, the ease of handling them and the extra dollars I receive when they sell at the top of the market and I don't have to take a loss on culls offsets the possible gains you are talking about at least here it does. Maybe not in your world.


That is like saying your the only one that raises quality cattle.
Purchasing the heifer I am a year ahead of you two if I buy the bred cow as well as having the write off in the event of death. Plus she returns the purchase price to me in depreciation while producing a salable product.
The retained heifer returns nothing to the bottom line in the event of death
plus has the loss of the dams production to the bottom line for that year.
Until you track the true cost to keep a cow standing in your pasture you have no idea how much the retained heifer really cost you.
Again if your shooting for genetic improvement it makes sense.
It doesn't pencil in the terminal cow/calf operation.
This is about money plain and simple.


As a breeder I always shoot for genetic improvement. No I'm not the only one raising quality cattle. But to find quality cattle that has a reputation and that will perform with our cattle I know what it costs. I searched and looked at literally thousands of head over 2 years trying to find a few that met our requirements. I know what they were bringing in a down market and also by doing that I know how many I've had to cull. Nothing like raising them and knowing their ancestors for a few generations. In todays market it would cost me at least $2,500 dollars to purchase the same quality of 2 y/o pair as we retain and keep. I have been keeping up with the market and have seen some sell recently of equal quality. Again I will continue to do what has worked for many successful well respected cattlemen I know and what we have found puts the most dollars in our pockets. We know how much it takes to keep a cow a year and how much it takes to develop a heifer. And not what you have posted.
Do you keep your calves and feed them as feeders? If so why don't you sell them and buy feeders? By your logic more money to be made.

You must use a different accountant than we do. Ours is happy and we are too and don't owe a dime to no one so guess we haven't made all bad decisions.
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Re: Making the best black baldy cattle

Postby Caustic Burno » Sat May 20, 2017 11:00 am

Your shyting yourself then on cost.
Like most that don't really charge the cow all the input cost to run the operation.
If your not charging the cow every penny in inputs to operate they are on welfare.
So you can produce hay, buy fuel fertilizers, pay taxes, medicate, along with all other maintenance cost for less than a dollar a day per cow, while maintaining cows returning nothing to the bottom line.
Got to throw the BS flag on that one.
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Re: Making the best black baldy cattle

Postby elkwc » Sat May 20, 2017 11:14 am

Caustic Burno wrote:Your shyting yourself then on cost.
Like most that don't really charge the cow all the input cost to run the operation.
If your not charging the cow every penny in inputs to operate they are on welfare.
So you can produce hay, buy fuel fertilizers, pay taxes, medicate, along with all other maintenance cost for less than a dollar a day per cow, while maintaining cows returning nothing to the bottom line.
Got to throw the BS flag on that one.


I throw the BS flag on a lot of your posts. You didn't bother answering if you retain your calves and feed them out. We charge all costs to our cows. We know the true cost. A good accountant can do things you say can't be done.
Last edited by elkwc on Sat May 20, 2017 12:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Making the best black baldy cattle

Postby elkwc » Sat May 20, 2017 11:19 am

elkwc wrote:
Caustic Burno wrote:Your shyting yourself then on cost.
Like most that don't really charge the cow all the input cost to run the operation.
If your not charging the cow every penny in inputs to operate they are on welfare.
So you can produce hay, buy fuel fertilizers, pay taxes, medicate, along with all other maintenance cost for less than a dollar a day per cow, while maintaining cows returning nothing to the bottom line.
Got to throw the BS flag on that one.


I throw the BS flag on a lot of your posts. You didn't both answering if you retain your calves and feed them out. We charge all costs to our cows. We know the true cost. A good accountant can do things you say can't be done. The cow is returning something in the heifer we retain. We are in it for the long haul. I get the feeling you are are a sale barn person. That is fine I have many good friends who own them, who work at them and who buy/trade cattle through them. I've know several that have made good money buying their cows through the sale barn but no more than those who retain the females they raise. My BIL owned an interest in a sale barn for several years and as a youngster I worked in one. If that works for you that is fine but that doesn't fit our operation or that of many I know. Again you can spew all the BS you want. I deal in facts and we along with our accountant know the facts.
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Re: Making the best black baldy cattle

Postby Caustic Burno » Sat May 20, 2017 11:41 am

Hurts to find out you have welfare cattle.
You can try and BS some people but I have been doing this 50 years.
Your numbers don't fly in a cow/calf operation unless someone is giving you tractors,fuel,paying your taxes and maintaining the place.
Your CPA might have you BSed your making money with write offs lot of cattlemen spend a dollar to save a dime versus spending a dime to make a dollar . It doesn't matter if you have 10 or 1000 there is fixed input cost.
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Re: Making the best black baldy cattle

Postby elkwc » Sat May 20, 2017 12:05 pm

Caustic Burno wrote:Hurts to find out you have welfare cattle.
You can try and BS some people but I have been doing this 50 years.
Your numbers don't fly in a cow/calf operation unless someone is giving you tractors,fuel,paying your taxes and maintaining the place.
Your CPA might have you BSed your making money with write offs lot of cattlemen spend a dollar to save a dime versus spending a dime to make a dollar . It doesn't matter if you have 10 or 1000 there is fixed input cost.


I have been around it longer than you have. Again I won't tell you what will make the most money for you. But just because it makes the most money for you doesn't mean it will for me or anyone else. You don't know my situation or that of anyone else you are always trying to force your views on.

It is you that started the making money by write offs statements not me. In my case I've always beleived in spending a penny to make a dollar. So guess I'm 9 cents ahead of you. Yes there are fixed costs and that applies to whether you retain them or buy them. I'm done trying to reason with you. You have proven you are one that thinks your way is the only way. I'm surprised as smart as you think you are I don't see you listed on the USA's ten wealthiest people list.
I'm done discussing this with you. We will continue to do what works for us and I'm sure you will also. Just hope someday you open your mind and realize that there is more ways or doing things other than your way and none of them are wrong. And what works in one area don't work in another.
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Re: Making the best black baldy cattle

Postby Wyo1 » Sat May 20, 2017 2:00 pm

If you can't make money retaining your heifers it must be your location.
Heifer last fall worth $570
Winter $40x7=280 (more than I pay)
Sumer $20x6=120 (more than I pay)
Breeding $30
Death loss interest $50
Vet/vaccine $10
Total $1060
So if you sold them next fall just as open heifers 975x1.25 1218
Breed heifers $1500
If you need a new accountant and don't depreciate your breeding livestock you would only be paying on the first 570 plus profit. And you would have to pay on the 570 in the first place.
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Re: Making the best black baldy cattle

Postby Caustic Burno » Sat May 20, 2017 2:51 pm

Wyo1 wrote:If you can't make money retaining your heifers it must be your location.
Heifer last fall worth $570
Winter $40x7=280 (more than I pay)
Sumer $20x6=120 (more than I pay)
Breeding $30
Death loss interest $50
Vet/vaccine $10
Total $1060
So if you sold them next fall just as open heifers 975x1.25 1218
Breed heifers $1500
If you need a new accountant and don't depreciate your breeding livestock you would only be paying on the first 570 plus profit. And you would have to pay on the 570 in the first place.

What happened to taxes,fuel, maintenance etc.
What happened to the cows expense as well? The cow produced no income for the year only inputs.
You can't deprecate retained stock as the stock has no value until sold.
If your CPA is depreciating retained stock they are going to get you one of those special audits.
You can right off the inputs on the retained calf that's it.
To have depreciation value with the IRS it has to be bought
If I use your numbers for the cow and calf to retain you have 2100 in them
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Re: Making the best black baldy cattle

Postby elkwc » Sat May 20, 2017 3:16 pm

Wyo1 wrote:If you can't make money retaining your heifers it must be your location.
Heifer last fall worth $570
Winter $40x7=280 (more than I pay)
Sumer $20x6=120 (more than I pay)
Breeding $30
Death loss interest $50
Vet/vaccine $10
Total $1060
So if you sold them next fall just as open heifers 975x1.25 1218
Breed heifers $1500
If you need a new accountant and don't depreciate your breeding livestock you would only be paying on the first 570 plus profit. And you would have to pay on the 570 in the first place.


+1. You won't ever change his mind and you can't reason with him. Here it works and makes sense. If it didn't why would over 75% of all breeders in this area retain their heifers? It is like having a Brahma influence. It works in the south but doesn't leaves a lot of dollars on the table in this area. What makes the most money in one area doesn't in another. And I'll trust my accountant for guidance before I'll follow his advice on write offs.
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