Making the best black baldy cattle

Discuss the advantages and disadvantages of your favorite breed.

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Brute 23
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Re: Making the best black baldy cattle

Postby Brute 23 » Sat May 20, 2017 11:12 pm

Guys, you are not going to get CB to admit to retain heifers. Just accept it and move on. :)

The tax deal is a wash. There are no tax benefits one way or another.

Let's say you keep a calf until 8mo before you sell. It sells for $750. Many people think if they keep that heifer they lost that revenue. In a way they did but it's only because they reinvested it. Their money is still there, it's just invested in another asset, the heifer. It's like taking your dividends and having them automatically buy more stock.

The next stage is from 8mo until she is bred. Every ones operation is different so it will cost every one a different amount to hold them.

Once they are bred that time gets billed to their calf, just like a cow raising a calf. If it costs you $350 to raise a call with a cow, it should be simular.

There are are some that may not breed. They will sell at packer prices. If there is a deficit that will have to be divided among the heifers in production.

Keep in mind there could be flat out loss. That cost will also have to be divided among the productive heifers.

When you add all those numbers up you can see if keeping heifers works for your operation.

If you can sell a few heifers to individuals it really helps the numbers .
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Re: Making the best black baldy cattle

Postby elkwc » Sat May 20, 2017 11:23 pm

Brute 23 wrote:Guys, you are not going to get CB to admit to retain heifers. Just accept it and move on. :)

The tax deal is a wash. There are no tax benefits one way or another.

Let's say you keep a calf until 8mo before you sell. It sells for $750. Many people think if they keep that heifer they lost that revenue. In a way they did but it's only because they reinvested it. Their money is still there, it's just invested in another asset, the heifer. It's like taking your dividends and having them automatically buy more stock.

The next stage is from 8mo until she is bred. Every ones operation is different so it will cost every one a different amount to hold them.

Once they are bred that time gets billed to their calf, just like a cow raising a calf. If it costs you $350 to raise a call with a cow, it should be simular.

There are are some that may not breed. They will sell at packer prices. If there is a deficit that will have to be divided among the heifers in production.

Keep in mind there could be flat out loss. That cost will also have to be divided among the productive heifers.

When you add all those numbers up you can see if keeping heifers works for your operation.

If you can sell a few heifers to individuals it really helps the numbers .


Well stated. Retaining heifers isn't the best choice for everyone. But for many it is the best choice. I don't care if he retains heifers or not. But just because he choses not too doesn't mean that he should push everyone else including those new to owning cattle not too.
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Re: Making the best black baldy cattle

Postby plumber_greg » Sun May 21, 2017 8:10 am

CB states that retaining heifers is a crapshoot on which ones will turn out to be good cows. Can tell he has no experience doing this. One thing I can assure someone is that I can save every heifer out of 100 cows of mine, and they will all turn out to be cows. No later culling will be necessary. I just don't, after generations of retaining them, have any that won't make cows. I may have a small percentage open when bred in a 70 day period, but even that is getting smaller and smaller.
Where in the world does those good cows he claims he buys come from? If everyone is broke saving heifers, how can there be commercial cows available? Accidently bred ones in the feedlot, I guess.
In order to gain net worth and retirement income, assets must be acculimated. If it all was about cash money, and how much can I make today, assets cannot be stockpiled.
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Re: Making the best black baldy cattle

Postby Bright Raven » Sun May 21, 2017 8:15 am

plumber_greg wrote:CB states that retaining heifers is a crapshoot on which ones will turn out to be good cows. Can tell he has no experience doing this. One thing I can assure someone is that I can save every heifer out of 100 cows of mine, and they will all turn out to be cows. No later culling will be necessary. I just don't, after generations of retaining them, have any that won't make cows. I may have a small percentage open when bred in a 70 day period, but even that is getting smaller and smaller.
Where in the world does those good cows he claims he buys come from? If everyone is broke saving heifers, how can there be commercial cows available? Accidently bred ones in the feedlot, I guess.
In order to gain net worth and retirement income, assets must be acculimated. If it all was about cash money, and how much can I make today, assets cannot be stockpiled.


CB, did not take Economics 101. It was a general education requirement or I would not have taken it - boring as watching paint dry. Nevertheless, I wanted an A , so I read the damm book. You just stated a fundamental principle of accumulating wealth! It is not just holding currency. It is the assets you hold. You get a gold star.
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Re: Making the best black baldy cattle

Postby Brute 23 » Sun May 21, 2017 8:51 am

CB makes some good points that ever one needs to consider but I agree what works for one does not work for all.

We buy and retain cattle. I cull just as many purchased cattle as retained cattle, if not more.

What I like about retaining them is any where along the way I can sell them and usually get real close to breaking even just on weight gain. I've got 2 heifers right now that have had their first calf and are bred back. I'm not real happy with them so I am going to sell them as bred 2nd calf heifers, or 3N1s. One man's trash is another man's treasure. As long as I am honest with the buyer and sell at what we both agree is fair, I have no problem with it. I will get my money back on them, or so close it won't matter.

Friend of mine just sent me a pic Friday of a black heifer he bought from me bred back to a tigerstripe bull. It has a good little red and white calf standing beside her. He's happy as can be. I sell off every thing that doesn't carry as much ear as I would like but a lot of people specifically want those so it works good for both of us.
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Re: Making the best black baldy cattle

Postby Clodhopper » Sun May 21, 2017 9:27 am

Bright Raven wrote:
plumber_greg wrote:CB states that retaining heifers is a crapshoot on which ones will turn out to be good cows. Can tell he has no experience doing this. One thing I can assure someone is that I can save every heifer out of 100 cows of mine, and they will all turn out to be cows. No later culling will be necessary. I just don't, after generations of retaining them, have any that won't make cows. I may have a small percentage open when bred in a 70 day period, but even that is getting smaller and smaller.
Where in the world does those good cows he claims he buys come from? If everyone is broke saving heifers, how can there be commercial cows available? Accidently bred ones in the feedlot, I guess.
In order to gain net worth and retirement income, assets must be acculimated. If it all was about cash money, and how much can I make today, assets cannot be stockpiled.


CB, did not take Economics 101. It was a general education requirement or I would not have taken it - boring as watching paint dry. Nevertheless, I wanted an A , so I read the damm book. You just stated a fundamental principle of accumulating wealth! It is not just holding currency. It is the assets you hold. You get a gold star.

If it were all about cash, a guy like me wouldn't have a thing, since I've never made enough wages to pay all the bills and buy assets outright at the same time. The trick is to borrow money on something that makes money back, and pay cash for as much else as possible.
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Re: Making the best black baldy cattle

Postby Clodhopper » Sun May 21, 2017 9:33 am

Brute 23 wrote:CB makes some good points that ever one needs to consider but I agree what works for one does not work for all.

We buy and retain cattle. I cull just as many purchased cattle as retained cattle, if not more.

What I like about retaining them is any where along the way I can sell them and usually get real close to breaking even just on weight gain. I've got 2 heifers right now that have had their first calf and are bred back. I'm not real happy with them so I am going to sell them as bred 2nd calf heifers, or 3N1s. One man's trash is another man's treasure. As long as I am honest with the buyer and sell at what we both agree is fair, I have no problem with it. I will get my money back on them, or so close it won't matter.

Friend of mine just sent me a pic Friday of a black heifer he bought from me bred back to a tigerstripe bull. It has a good little red and white calf standing beside her. He's happy as can be. I sell off every thing that doesn't carry as much ear as I would like but a lot of people specifically want those so it works good for both of us.

You said the magic word... cull. We've all let emotion get in the way of culling decisions I'm sure, but a guy needs to be a hard azz when it comes to culling. I've bought and retained both as well, but I try to stick to principle when it comes to what I want long term. I have jumped on good deals of lesser quality, but they have to be a short term money maker.
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Re: Making the best black baldy cattle

Postby elkwc » Sun May 21, 2017 9:36 am

plumber_greg wrote:CB states that retaining heifers is a crapshoot on which ones will turn out to be good cows. Can tell he has no experience doing this. One thing I can assure someone is that I can save every heifer out of 100 cows of mine, and they will all turn out to be cows. No later culling will be necessary. I just don't, after generations of retaining them, have any that won't make cows. I may have a small percentage open when bred in a 70 day period, but even that is getting smaller and smaller.
Where in the world does those good cows he claims he buys come from? If everyone is broke saving heifers, how can there be commercial cows available? Accidently bred ones in the feedlot, I guess.
In order to gain net worth and retirement income, assets must be acculimated. If it all was about cash money, and how much can I make today, assets cannot be stockpiled.

+1 The same here. The cull rate on retained heifers is very low for us. The few we have culled have been mostly for docility. And some of those weren't bad and the new owners love them. Being that the lady I go with is in her 70's if one takes a little longer to pen or just a little flighty to handle we cull them. There hadn't been any culling for that when I started helping. In the last year we haven't culled any. The same can't be said about purchased females. And we have tried to be very selective in what we have bought. After the drought and everyone started building up their herds again many purchased females. Everyone I've talked to has had to cull deeper on most of them despite of where they came from or what they gave. The few exceptions were those bought from local reputable breeders. Which wasn't many as most of them were tying to build numbers back up also. If I purchase anymore it will be something I know something about.

To summarize my views I will post what I was told many years ago when I was a lot younger. That you can retain the top females you raise and develop your dream herd or at least the cowherd you set your goal to raise. Or you can go to the sale and purchase someone elses dream and culls. That is not to say that there isn't good females being sold at the sales. In today's world a person can also use AIing to help advance their herd. If a person is happy with buying cows every few years and raising someone elses dream cow or even trading them that is great. But in my opinion to develop a uniform herd that represents my desires the only way to get there is by retaining heifers. Look at some of the posters on this board like Nesi that shows his females and bulls that he has raised. To me I have more pride in something I made the breeding decisions on.
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Re: Making the best black baldy cattle

Postby dun » Sun May 21, 2017 12:09 pm

We retained 3 2016 heifers from the spring crop. That was all the heifers we got out of the bull that went queer or at least lost his libido. They are sort of OK but they will be going to the salebarn as feeders this week. This is the first time that we didn;t breed the majority of the heifers. He was a decent bull but just seemed to fall apart while breeding the cows. When we preg checked he went on the trailer, only the one breeding season. He was out of a great cow and AI sired by one of the top bulls in the Red Angus breed. The cows sired by that bull turned out well, but his son sure didn;t
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Re: Making the best black baldy cattle

Postby Post Oak » Sun May 21, 2017 12:18 pm

elkwc wrote:
plumber_greg wrote:CB states that retaining heifers is a crapshoot on which ones will turn out to be good cows. Can tell he has no experience doing this. One thing I can assure someone is that I can save every heifer out of 100 cows of mine, and they will all turn out to be cows. No later culling will be necessary. I just don't, after generations of retaining them, have any that won't make cows. I may have a small percentage open when bred in a 70 day period, but even that is getting smaller and smaller.
Where in the world does those good cows he claims he buys come from? If everyone is broke saving heifers, how can there be commercial cows available? Accidently bred ones in the feedlot, I guess.
In order to gain net worth and retirement income, assets must be acculimated. If it all was about cash money, and how much can I make today, assets cannot be stockpiled.

+1 The same here. The cull rate on retained heifers is very low for us. The few we have culled have been mostly for docility. And some of those weren't bad and the new owners love them. Being that the lady I go with is in her 70's if one takes a little longer to pen or just a little flighty to handle we cull them. There hadn't been any culling for that when I started helping. In the last year we haven't culled any. The same can't be said about purchased females. And we have tried to be very selective in what we have bought. After the drought and everyone started building up their herds again many purchased females. Everyone I've talked to has had to cull deeper on most of them despite of where they came from or what they gave. The few exceptions were those bought from local reputable breeders. Which wasn't many as most of them were tying to build numbers back up also. If I purchase anymore it will be something I know something about.

To summarize my views I will post what I was told many years ago when I was a lot younger. That you can retain the top females you raise and develop your dream herd or at least the cowherd you set your goal to raise. Or you can go to the sale and purchase someone elses dream and culls. That is not to say that there isn't good females being sold at the sales. In today's world a person can also use AIing to help advance their herd. If a person is happy with buying cows every few years and raising someone elses dream cow or even trading them that is great. But in my opinion to develop a uniform herd that represents my desires the only way to get there is by retaining heifers. Look at some of the posters on this board like Nesi that shows his females and bulls that he has raised. To me I have more pride in something I made the breeding decisions on.

AMEN!
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Re: Making the best black baldy cattle

Postby WalnutCrest » Sun May 21, 2017 3:54 pm

It appears some posters in this thread are confusing (intentionally or otherwise) the differences between profit, positive cash flow and increases in net worth.

At weaning, heifers can be retained, sold as future breeders or culled.
Before breeding, heifers can be retained, sold as future breeders or culled.
After breeding, heifers van be retained, sold as bred, sold as future breeders, or culled.
After calving the first time ...

... well you get the idea.

And each guy gets to mark different times they like to jump off the train on any given animal.

At this point in my herds development, I'm more inclined to sell heifers and buy back older cows than to sell cows and buy someone else's heifers.
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Re: Making the best black baldy cattle

Postby Muddy » Sun May 21, 2017 4:00 pm

Are we gonna talking about black baldies or what?
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Re: Making the best black baldy cattle

Postby TexasBred » Sun May 21, 2017 4:34 pm

Bright Raven wrote:
plumber_greg wrote:CB states that retaining heifers is a crapshoot on which ones will turn out to be good cows. Can tell he has no experience doing this. One thing I can assure someone is that I can save every heifer out of 100 cows of mine, and they will all turn out to be cows. No later culling will be necessary. I just don't, after generations of retaining them, have any that won't make cows. I may have a small percentage open when bred in a 70 day period, but even that is getting smaller and smaller.
Where in the world does those good cows he claims he buys come from? If everyone is broke saving heifers, how can there be commercial cows available? Accidently bred ones in the feedlot, I guess.
In order to gain net worth and retirement income, assets must be acculimated. If it all was about cash money, and how much can I make today, assets cannot be stockpiled.


CB, did not take Economics 101. It was a general education requirement or I would not have taken it - boring as watching paint dry. Nevertheless, I wanted an A , so I read the damm book. You just stated a fundamental principle of accumulating wealth! It is not just holding currency. It is the assets you hold. You get a gold star.

Depends on the quality of the assets. I know folks worth many millions "on paper" that can hardly buy a meal at a restaurant because they have no cash or cash flow. Asset Rich......cash poor.
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Re: Making the best black baldy cattle

Postby Clodhopper » Sun May 21, 2017 4:53 pm

Muddy wrote:Are we gonna talking about black baldies or what?

I'm ready to. I found some Line 1 cows that will be coming home this week! :banana: Let the Hereford bashing commence!
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Re: Making the best black baldy cattle

Postby Bright Raven » Sun May 21, 2017 4:57 pm

TexasBred wrote:
Bright Raven wrote:
plumber_greg wrote:CB states that retaining heifers is a crapshoot on which ones will turn out to be good cows. Can tell he has no experience doing this. One thing I can assure someone is that I can save every heifer out of 100 cows of mine, and they will all turn out to be cows. No later culling will be necessary. I just don't, after generations of retaining them, have any that won't make cows. I may have a small percentage open when bred in a 70 day period, but even that is getting smaller and smaller.
Where in the world does those good cows he claims he buys come from? If everyone is broke saving heifers, how can there be commercial cows available? Accidently bred ones in the feedlot, I guess.
In order to gain net worth and retirement income, assets must be acculimated. If it all was about cash money, and how much can I make today, assets cannot be stockpiled.


CB, did not take Economics 101. It was a general education requirement or I would not have taken it - boring as watching paint dry. Nevertheless, I wanted an A , so I read the damm book. You just stated a fundamental principle of accumulating wealth! It is not just holding currency. It is the assets you hold. You get a gold star.

Depends on the quality of the assets. I know folks worth many millions "on paper" that can hardly buy a meal at a restaurant because they have no cash or cash flow. Asset Rich......cash poor.


Richard, I hope you didn't feel sorry for them and buy their meal!!! 8)
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