Let's Bicker

Discuss the advantages and disadvantages of your favorite breed.

Clodhopper
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Re: Let's Bicker

Postby Clodhopper » Sun May 07, 2017 9:42 am

I think there's a point of diminishing returns on this improvement theory. Look at modern confinement hogs, they've changed so much in just the last 20 years. Much more fragile, but man do they gain weight! Chickens and turkeys, much the same, they can't even breed on their own. Are cattle next?
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Re: Let's Bicker

Postby Clodhopper » Sun May 07, 2017 9:46 am

Oh, and other than the Hindu comments, which I assume won't offend very many on this forum, this sounds more like intelligent conversation than bickering so far.
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Re: Let's Bicker

Postby Bright Raven » Sun May 07, 2017 9:46 am

Clodhopper wrote:I think there's a point of diminishing returns on this improvement theory. Look at modern confinement hogs, they've changed so much in just the last 20 years. Much more fragile, but man do they gain weight! Chickens and turkeys, much the same, they can't even breed on their own. Are cattle next?


What I consider an "improvement", you may consider an injury.

For many reasons, we covet what meets our need. It can be quite different.
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Re: Let's Bicker

Postby Bright Raven » Sun May 07, 2017 9:52 am

Son of Butch wrote:
BRYANT wrote:just add a little Brahman to any of them and you will improve them :lol:

All you Hindu converts are just looking for loopholes in immigration laws to bring grandpa gandi's soul into the usa. :)


We could use some Gandhi's soul!
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Re: Let's Bicker

Postby Clodhopper » Sun May 07, 2017 9:54 am

Bright Raven wrote:
Clodhopper wrote:I think there's a point of diminishing returns on this improvement theory. Look at modern confinement hogs, they've changed so much in just the last 20 years. Much more fragile, but man do they gain weight! Chickens and turkeys, much the same, they can't even breed on their own. Are cattle next?


What I consider an "improvement", you may consider an injury.

For many reasons, we covet what meets our need. It can be quite different.

As bad as I hate to sound like a tree hugging, Chipotle restaurant eating hippie, is that direction sustainable over the long haul? I'm not sure, as it seems we are trying to narrow everything down a little too much.
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Re: Let's Bicker

Postby redcowsrule33 » Sun May 07, 2017 9:58 am

Breeds evolved over centuries that had very little movement of people and animals from region to region. Over the centuries they were selected to meet the needs (and the aesthetics) of the people and environments they occupied. People are more mobile now and so are their animals, but because the world we have is so diverse and beef cattle for the most part are still raised out in the environment, breeds still have relevance. If the cow/calf industry moves to a confinement model such as the hoop system the breeds will lose their commercial relevance and cattle will go the way of the chickens and swine. Which the packers will actually prefer as it will encourage more uniformity. If this happens, my cows will still be on pasture relevant or not. If I wanted confinement systems I would raise turkeys. Looking at the hoop systems makes my heart hurt. With that, I will depart and watch my new red babies frolic in the green grass and sunshine. Cheers.
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Re: Let's Bicker

Postby Bright Raven » Sun May 07, 2017 10:02 am

Clodhopper wrote:
Bright Raven wrote:
Clodhopper wrote:I think there's a point of diminishing returns on this improvement theory. Look at modern confinement hogs, they've changed so much in just the last 20 years. Much more fragile, but man do they gain weight! Chickens and turkeys, much the same, they can't even breed on their own. Are cattle next?


What I consider an "improvement", you may consider an injury.

For many reasons, we covet what meets our need. It can be quite different.

As bad as I hate to sound like a tree hugging, Chipotle restaurant eating hippie, is that direction sustainable over the long haul? I'm not sure, as it seems we are trying to narrow everything down a little too much.


IDK. I like what redcowsrule said. Let's go out and watch our calves and bicker tonight.
:banana:
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Re: Let's Bicker

Postby Son of Butch » Sun May 07, 2017 10:05 am

redcowsrule33 wrote:If I wanted confinement systems I would raise turkeys.

Really? Where would you sell them?
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Re: Let's Bicker

Postby WalnutCrest » Sun May 07, 2017 10:08 am

Bright Raven wrote:
WalnutCrest wrote:
Bright Raven wrote:Currently, all cattle on planet earth are categorized by the science of taxonomy into the species Bos taurus. The type species is Bos taurus taurus with indicus cattle being recognized as Bos taurus indicus.

Ever since mankind moved his furniture from the family cave, he has been looking for a reliable supply of food for his family. So somewhere in the evil middle East before Mesopotamia had flowered into the center of human civilization, mankind had started domesticating animals.

Asia has several species of wild bovine. Banteng, Gaur, Kouprey, etc. Hunters probably brought calves of these wild cattle back to their village where they nurtured them. Eventually, this evolved into the process of domestication which continues today.

As a result of selection and culling, mankind has developed breeds of cattle. There are 800 breeds of cattle recognized worldwide.

There is a misconception I observe on this forum that "breeds" should be "stagnant". Go to the Black Hereford thread as evidence. Breeds are a "work in progress". If holding to a "breed" like at some point all improvement must stop was that important, there would be one and that one would look like a Auroch.

If a breed association (Not one of the local marketing associations you guys think Satan spawned) and its membership decide to improve the breed or modernize it to meet market demands, why is that sacreligious?


I - Bos taurus sanga ... a third option

II - Improvement is a very interesting word. How would one know if they were actually improving something ... vs ... change for changes sake?


Darren, you might be interested to know the recent changes in taxonomy. Preface: It is controversial. The International Commission on Zoological Nomenclature has listed Sanga cattle as Bos taurus africanus.

Sanga cattle is the collective name for indigenous cattle of sub-Saharan Africa. They are sometimes identified as a subspecies with the scientific name Bos taurus africanus.

Your second point. I believe "improvement" is arbitrary and capricious. To put it in common terms: it is in the eye of the beholder.


Africanus v Sanga = not controversial (to me)

And yes, "improvement" is arbitrary and capricious if one is going for purely aesthetic qualities (in an endeavor that's primarily non-aesthetic like breeding beef cattle).

"Improvement" is practical and measurable if one focuses on the profitable development of great tasting BEEF. You know, the stuff the client actually eats...and you hope will want to eat again and again.
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Re: Let's Bicker

Postby Bright Raven » Sun May 07, 2017 10:13 am

WalnutCrest wrote:
Bright Raven wrote:
WalnutCrest wrote:
I - Bos taurus sanga ... a third option

II - Improvement is a very interesting word. How would one know if they were actually improving something ... vs ... change for changes sake?


Darren, you might be interested to know the recent changes in taxonomy. Preface: It is controversial. The International Commission on Zoological Nomenclature has listed Sanga cattle as Bos taurus africanus.

Sanga cattle is the collective name for indigenous cattle of sub-Saharan Africa. They are sometimes identified as a subspecies with the scientific name Bos taurus africanus.

Your second point. I believe "improvement" is arbitrary and capricious. To put it in common terms: it is in the eye of the beholder.


Africanus v Sanga = not controversial (to me)

And yes, "improvement" is arbitrary and capricious if one is going for purely aesthetic qualities (in an endeavor that's primarily non-aesthetic like breeding beef cattle).

"Improvement" is practical and measurable if one focuses on the profitable development of great tasting BEEF. You know, the stuff the client actually eats...and you hope will want to eat again and again.


You got a point.
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Re: Let's Bicker

Postby Bright Raven » Sun May 07, 2017 10:47 am

WalnutCrest

Where do the Mashona cattle place in the Sanga group? Are they an off-shoot of the Tuli cattle of Zimbabwe.

The Mashona tribe is the largest tribe in Zimbabwe. I assume they originated in Mashonaland. Beef is a major part of the cuisine in Zimbabwe hotels and restaurants. I ate beef and other wild game while hunting. Their beef tastes better than our beef. Maybe because of the way it was cooked or being outside in camps.

I was impressed at how good most of the cattle herds on the ranches there looked.
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Re: Let's Bicker

Postby dun » Sun May 07, 2017 4:09 pm

Son of Butch wrote:
dun wrote:In the spirit of things, if I had a perfect 1955 corvette and painted it JD green, how is that an improvement?

No such thing as a perfect '55 corvette.
Otherwise why would design engineers add power windows in 1956 or a 4 speed manual transmission in 1957.

Perfect as in "just like it rolled off the facotry floor in 1955"
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Re: Let's Bicker

Postby dun » Sun May 07, 2017 4:12 pm

Bright Raven wrote:
dun wrote:In the spirit of things, if I had a perfect 1955 corvette and painted it JD green, how is that an improvement?


Is there a perfect breed? If the value of the 1955 Corvette was increased by 30 %, would you paint it JD Green?

Perfect as in "just like it rolled off the facotry floor in 1955". No I wouldn;t, that would be like painting my Model A pickup bright purple
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Re: Let's Bicker

Postby WalnutCrest » Sun May 07, 2017 4:22 pm

Bright Raven wrote:WalnutCrest

Where do the Mashona cattle place in the Sanga group? Are they an off-shoot of the Tuli cattle of Zimbabwe.

The Mashona tribe is the largest tribe in Zimbabwe. I assume they originated in Mashonaland. Beef is a major part of the cuisine in Zimbabwe hotels and restaurants. I ate beef and other wild game while hunting. Their beef tastes better than our beef. Maybe because of the way it was cooked or being outside in camps.

I was impressed at how good most of the cattle herds on the ranches there looked.


Short answer in lieu of a long one...

Mashona cattle were developed through the breeding of cattle collected at two testing stations in the middle of the last century. The collected cattle were determined to be of very similar phenotype, and by mixing them and then culling for undesired traits, a breed type was established and fixed.

They are distinct from Tuli cattle.

Generally, Mashona beef rates as being more palatable (i.e., tender). The cattle are also a good bit smaller than the Tuli; we only have two fullblood Mashona cows and a fullblood heifer ... the biggest cow is maybe 1150 lbs ... the smaller is maybe 1000-1050 lbs.

Food eaten outside after a hard days' work (almost) always tastes great! I believe the Mashona have particularly thin muscle fibers, making for beef with better than average tenderness.
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Re: Let's Bicker

Postby Bright Raven » Sun May 07, 2017 4:28 pm

WalnutCrest wrote:
Bright Raven wrote:WalnutCrest

Where do the Mashona cattle place in the Sanga group? Are they an off-shoot of the Tuli cattle of Zimbabwe.

The Mashona tribe is the largest tribe in Zimbabwe. I assume they originated in Mashonaland. Beef is a major part of the cuisine in Zimbabwe hotels and restaurants. I ate beef and other wild game while hunting. Their beef tastes better than our beef. Maybe because of the way it was cooked or being outside in camps.

I was impressed at how good most of the cattle herds on the ranches there looked.


Short answer in lieu of a long one...

Mashona cattle were developed through the breeding of cattle collected at two testing stations in the middle of the last century. The collected cattle were determined to be of very similar phenotype, and by mixing them and then culling for undesired traits, a breed type was established and fixed.

They are distinct from Tuli cattle.

Generally, Mashona beef rates as being more palatable (i.e., tender). The cattle are also a good bit smaller than the Tuli; we only have two fullblood Mashona cows and a fullblood heifer ... the biggest cow is maybe 1150 lbs ... the smaller is maybe 1000-1050 lbs.

Food eaten outside after a hard days' work (almost) always tastes great! I believe the Mashona have particularly thin muscle fibers, making for beef with better than average tenderness.


Thank you. Feel free to keep it short. You said collected cattle - but what were they? Were they a sampling of the existing herds in Mashonaland?
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