Let's Bicker

Discuss the advantages and disadvantages of your favorite breed.

flatrock9
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Re: Let's Bicker

Postby flatrock9 » Sun May 14, 2017 6:58 pm

Okay I'm green as a willow branch on all this. I just finished the 15 page "What to look for in a Brahman" thread. My brain hurts.

I understand Angus selling higher to the colder feedlots and Brahman selling higher to more Southern feedlots. Is it me or are Angus preferred because of the marketing to the general public? (100% Angus Beef!) Is the taste, texture, marbling, etc. that much different? Is the only difference to the end consumer the marketing of Angus being superior?
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Re: Let's Bicker

Postby Son of Butch » Sun May 14, 2017 11:39 pm

flatrock9 wrote:Okay I'm green as a willow branch on all this. I just finished the 15 page "What to look for in a Brahman" thread.
My brain hurts.

LSU study of Brahman beef.
445 purebred brahman steers with known pedigrees sired by 68 brahman bulls.
feedlot gain 3.3 lbs per day similar to that achieved by crossbred steers at LSU
Carcass weight averaged 741 lbs middle of the pack of feedlot cattle havested
32% graded Low Choice
36% Select Plus
32% graded Select

Oklahoma Ag Experiment Station
Compared feedlot performance and carcass results between Brahman sired vs Charlolais sired 3 breed cross calves
Charolais carcasses were 39 lbs heavier and 1.99 sq inches more rib eye area, but Brahaman dressed 1.2% higher
Both were judged acceptable for other traits including tenderness.

Feedlot performance signifantly favored Charolais sired calves vs Brahman sired calves
Charolais gained .31 more lbs per day weighed 91 lbs more at slaughter and finished 2 days earlier
feed efficiency also favored the Charolais sired calves 7.91 lbs vs 8.25 lbs of feed per lb of gain

IMO if you are going brahman in a 3 way cross it's best as 1/2 breed brahma cow to produce 1/4 brahman calves.
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flatrock9
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Re: Let's Bicker

Postby flatrock9 » Mon May 15, 2017 8:03 am

I'm looking at putting a Brahman bull over my jersey cows. I fully understand the growth rate thing being a reason for choosing different breeds. What I don't get is why a black calf will outsell a char or Hereford around here when growth rates are similar for those three. To me it all amounts to Angus breeders marketing their breed as being a superior meat to other breeds. 90% of people don't know or care what breed their meat is from. They buy Angus because the TV told them it was the best.
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Re: Let's Bicker

Postby WalnutCrest » Mon May 15, 2017 12:25 pm

flatrock9 wrote:I'm looking at putting a Brahman bull over my jersey cows. I fully understand the growth rate thing being a reason for choosing different breeds. What I don't get is why a black calf will outsell a char or Hereford around here when growth rates are similar for those three. To me it all amounts to Angus breeders marketing their breed as being a superior meat to other breeds. 90% of people don't know or care what breed their meat is from. They buy Angus because the TV told them it was the best.


...and because they've never knowingly sought out other breeds of beef to eat.

There are many an angus breeder who put jersey (or some other) beef in their own freezer.
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Re: Let's Bicker

Postby Son of Butch » Thu May 18, 2017 8:23 pm

flatrock9 wrote: What I don't get is why a black calf will outsell a char or Hereford around here when growth rates
are similar for those three. 90% of people don't know or care what breed their meat is from.

Finished steer prices dictate the feeder calf market.
Professional buyers for the packing industry are the ones bidding on finished cattle not 'the people.'
The buyers job performance reviews are based on how well they perform. Prices paid and carcass data is tracked
for every load each buyer purchases. Their income, lively hood and job security are on the line based on the results.
In a free market results are what matter, results drive demand and demand is what drives the markets, not color.
Color would only matter to a professional buyer if one color produces more profit for them than another.
Color is what stands out to the novice, but that is not what stands out to a buyer when evaluating and bidding.
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Re: Let's Bicker

Postby WalnutCrest » Thu May 18, 2017 11:58 pm

Son of Butch wrote:
flatrock9 wrote: What I don't get is why a black calf will outsell a char or Hereford around here when growth rates
are similar for those three. 90% of people don't know or care what breed their meat is from.

Finished steer prices dictate the feeder calf market.
Professional buyers for the packing industry are the ones bidding on finished cattle not 'the people.'
The buyers job performance reviews are based on how well they perform. Prices paid and carcass data is tracked
for every load each buyer purchases. Their income, lively hood and job security are on the line based on the results.
In a free market results are what matter, results drive demand and demand is what drives the markets, not color.
Color would only matter to a professional buyer if one color produces more profit for them than another.
Color is what stands out to the novice, but that is not what stands out to a buyer when evaluating and bidding.


Pragmatic commentary.

"Something else" only works if you're marketing outside the commodity markets. Sometimes "something else" is far more interesting and profitable ... but you can't do a half-azzed job of it.
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Re: Let's Bicker

Postby andybob » Fri Aug 11, 2017 3:46 pm

Mashona pictures; http://sangacattle.webs.com/apps/photos ... d=15962207
Tuli pictures: http://sangacattle.webs.com/apps/photos ... d=12371824
Tuli are adapted to more desert conditions sparse high octane forage, Mashona are from the highlands where grass is low octane, bulky so have a larger rumen capacity to utilise poor forage. Both breeds have fine grained, well marbled beef and cross well both to European Taurus and to Indicus breeds and composites, retaining heat tolerance fertility, beef quality and parasite resistance.
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Re: Let's Bicker

Postby ALACOWMAN » Fri Aug 11, 2017 5:22 pm

Sometimes, the worst thing to happen to a cow is, a man with a plan...but those are the ones that show up early at the stock yard,wearing sun glasses and his hat pulled down low.... :cowboy:
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Re: Let's Bicker

Postby JWBrahman » Fri Aug 11, 2017 6:25 pm

ALACOWMAN wrote:Sometimes, the worst thing to happen to a cow is, a man with a plan...but those are the ones that show up early at the stock yard,wearing sun glasses and his hat pulled down low.... :cowboy:


:lol2: :clap: :deadhorse:

You made me remember the young guy who rented up every pasture around here he could find about 10 years ago. Long story short, he's in prison for defaulting on his govt loans.
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Re: Let's Bicker

Postby JWBrahman » Fri Aug 11, 2017 6:30 pm

Bright Raven wrote:Currently, all cattle on planet earth are categorized by the science of taxonomy into the species Bos taurus. The type species is Bos taurus taurus with indicus cattle being recognized as Bos taurus indicus.

Ever since mankind moved his furniture from the family cave, he has been looking for a reliable supply of food for his family. So somewhere in the evil middle East before Mesopotamia had flowered into the center of human civilization, mankind had started domesticating animals.

Asia has several species of wild bovine. Banteng, Gaur, Kouprey, etc. Hunters probably brought calves of these wild cattle back to their village where they nurtured them. Eventually, this evolved into the process of domestication which continues today.

As a result of selection and culling, mankind has developed breeds of cattle. There are 800 breeds of cattle recognized worldwide.

There is a misconception I observe on this forum that "breeds" should be "stagnant". Go to the Black Hereford thread as evidence. Breeds are a "work in progress". If holding to a "breed" like at some point all improvement must stop was that important, there would be one and that one would look like a Auroch.

If a breed association (Not one of the local marketing associations you guys think Satan spawned) and its membership decide to improve the breed or modernize it to meet market demands, why is that sacreligious?


You got a link to back that claim up about binomial nomenclature?
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Re: Let's Bicker

Postby JWBrahman » Fri Aug 11, 2017 6:31 pm

JWBrahman wrote:
Bright Raven wrote:Currently, all cattle on planet earth are categorized by the science of taxonomy into the species Bos taurus. The type species is Bos taurus taurus with indicus cattle being recognized as Bos taurus indicus.

Ever since mankind moved his furniture from the family cave, he has been looking for a reliable supply of food for his family. So somewhere in the evil middle East before Mesopotamia had flowered into the center of human civilization, mankind had started domesticating animals.

Asia has several species of wild bovine. Banteng, Gaur, Kouprey, etc. Hunters probably brought calves of these wild cattle back to their village where they nurtured them. Eventually, this evolved into the process of domestication which continues today.

As a result of selection and culling, mankind has developed breeds of cattle. There are 800 breeds of cattle recognized worldwide.

There is a misconception I observe on this forum that "breeds" should be "stagnant". Go to the Black Hereford thread as evidence. Breeds are a "work in progress". If holding to a "breed" like at some point all improvement must stop was that important, there would be one and that one would look like a Auroch.

If a breed association (Not one of the local marketing associations you guys think Satan spawned) and its membership decide to improve the breed or modernize it to meet market demands, why is that sacreligious?


You got a link to back that claim up about binomial nomenclature?

It's called binomial for a reason.
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Re: Let's Bicker

Postby Bright Raven » Fri Aug 11, 2017 7:18 pm

JWBrahman wrote:
JWBrahman wrote:
Bright Raven wrote:Currently, all cattle on planet earth are categorized by the science of taxonomy into the species Bos taurus. The type species is Bos taurus taurus with indicus cattle being recognized as Bos taurus indicus.

Ever since mankind moved his furniture from the family cave, he has been looking for a reliable supply of food for his family. So somewhere in the evil middle East before Mesopotamia had flowered into the center of human civilization, mankind had started domesticating animals.

Asia has several species of wild bovine. Banteng, Gaur, Kouprey, etc. Hunters probably brought calves of these wild cattle back to their village where they nurtured them. Eventually, this evolved into the process of domestication which continues today.

As a result of selection and culling, mankind has developed breeds of cattle. There are 800 breeds of cattle recognized worldwide.

There is a misconception I observe on this forum that "breeds" should be "stagnant". Go to the Black Hereford thread as evidence. Breeds are a "work in progress". If holding to a "breed" like at some point all improvement must stop was that important, there would be one and that one would look like a Auroch.

If a breed association (Not one of the local marketing associations you guys think Satan spawned) and its membership decide to improve the breed or modernize it to meet market demands, why is that sacreligious?


You got a link to back that claim up about binomial nomenclature?

It's called binomial for a reason.


Yep. Binomial nomenclature was fundamental to biology until the molecular age. My son who his PhD in molecular biology, cancer cell study, says they pay little attention to taxonomy today. They are doing everything at the molecular level.

YES. I used the following reference:

Wilson, D.E.; Reeder, D.M., eds. (2005). "Bos taurus". Mammal Species of the World: A Taxonomic and Geographic Reference (3rd ed.). Johns Hopkins University Press. ISBN 978-0-8018-8221-0. OCLC 62265494

Excerpt:

Cattle were originally identified as three separate species: Bos taurus, the European or "taurine" cattle (including similar types from Africa and Asia); Bos indicus, the zebu; and the extinct Bos primigenius, the aurochs. The aurochs is ancestral to both zebu and taurine cattle. These have been reclassified as one species, Bos taurus, with three subspecies: Bos taurus primigenius, Bos taurus indicus, and Bos taurus taurus.

Edited to add: The animal science folks are probably unaware of the change ( not intended to be an insult because they don't deal in the pure biological sciences) but because of that most animal science folks are going to follow the preclassification taxonomy.
Last edited by Bright Raven on Fri Aug 11, 2017 7:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Let's Bicker

Postby Craig Miller » Fri Aug 11, 2017 7:57 pm

WalnutCrest wrote:
flatrock9 wrote:I'm looking at putting a Brahman bull over my jersey cows. I fully understand the growth rate thing being a reason for choosing different breeds. What I don't get is why a black calf will outsell a char or Hereford around here when growth rates are similar for those three. To me it all amounts to Angus breeders marketing their breed as being a superior meat to other breeds. 90% of people don't know or care what breed their meat is from. They buy Angus because the TV told them it was the best.


...and because they've never knowingly sought out other breeds of beef to eat.

There are many an angus breeder who put jersey (or some other) beef in their own freezer.


I've had jersey, holstien cross, brangus cross in my freezer and some of all three right now. They all taste the same to me.
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Re: Let's Bicker

Postby Kingfisher » Fri Aug 11, 2017 8:02 pm

Muddy wrote:
Turkeybird wrote:What's next then? Homozygous black British whites and black Murray Greys,! If you want a hybrid why not make your own

Umm Black Murray greys already existed.


Ain't know way Backbone's MG's would look better black or could be improved by trying to turn them black. Just my ho
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Re: Let's Bicker

Postby Bright Raven » Fri Aug 11, 2017 8:14 pm

JWBrahman wrote:
Bright Raven wrote:Currently, all cattle on planet earth are categorized by the science of taxonomy into the species Bos taurus. The type species is Bos taurus taurus with indicus cattle being recognized as Bos taurus indicus.

Ever since mankind moved his furniture from the family cave, he has been looking for a reliable supply of food for his family. So somewhere in the evil middle East before Mesopotamia had flowered into the center of human civilization, mankind had started domesticating animals.

Asia has several species of wild bovine. Banteng, Gaur, Kouprey, etc. Hunters probably brought calves of these wild cattle back to their village where they nurtured them. Eventually, this evolved into the process of domestication which continues today.

As a result of selection and culling, mankind has developed breeds of cattle. There are 800 breeds of cattle recognized worldwide.

There is a misconception I observe on this forum that "breeds" should be "stagnant". Go to the Black Hereford thread as evidence. Breeds are a "work in progress". If holding to a "breed" like at some point all improvement must stop was that important, there would be one and that one would look like a Auroch.

If a breed association (Not one of the local marketing associations you guys think Satan spawned) and its membership decide to improve the breed or modernize it to meet market demands, why is that sacreligious?


You got a link to back that claim up about binomial nomenclature?


Here is a another reference treating the reclassification of Bos taurus as one species and all cattle extant and extinct separated into three subspecies:

"Bos taurus". Integrated Taxonomic Information System. Retrieved 9 May 2015
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