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Re: Let's Bicker

Posted: Sat Aug 12, 2017 12:07 pm
by andybob
To add to the origins of cattle breeds, while the long horned taurus entered Africa from the middle east via Egypt, and Indicus cattle were introduced from India about 2000 years ago,there is now evidence that there was a separate domestication in what is now Tanzania, possibly the ancestors of the Sanga breeds, the three genotypes and the various composites developed over thousands of years in highly challenging environments have contributed a wide base of untapped genetic material yet to be discovered for commercial breeding; http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news ... attle.html

Re: Let's Bicker

Posted: Sat Aug 12, 2017 12:11 pm
by andybob
Muddy, pure breeds are the Tuli, Mashona and Watusi, composites are the Senepol, Bonsmara and Barzona, assuming we consider the Afrikana a Sanga breed, as they are Zebu influenced and not pure Taurus Africanus.

Re: Let's Bicker

Posted: Sat Aug 12, 2017 12:43 pm
by Bright Raven
Andybob.

I saw a lot of nice cattle in the Lowveld. What were down there in the 90s?

Re: Let's Bicker

Posted: Sat Aug 12, 2017 12:59 pm
by andybob
Bright Raven wrote:Andybob.

I saw a lot of nice cattle in the Lowveld. What were down there in the 90s?

South Africa or Zimbabwe? Afrikana are still the basis of most herds, other than the breeds you are familiar with, Drakensburger, Tuli, Nkoni/Nguni, Bonsmara are and would have been then quite common throughout the lowveld.

Re: Let's Bicker

Posted: Sat Aug 12, 2017 1:18 pm
by Bright Raven
andybob wrote:
Bright Raven wrote:Andybob.

I saw a lot of nice cattle in the Lowveld. What were down there in the 90s?

South Africa or Zimbabwe? Afrikana are still the basis of most herds, other than the breeds you are familiar with, Drakensburger, Tuli, Nkoni/Nguni, Bonsmara are and would have been then quite common throughout the lowveld.


Zimbabwe.

Re: Let's Bicker

Posted: Sat Aug 12, 2017 1:23 pm
by Muddy
andybob wrote:Muddy, pure breeds are the Tuli, Mashona and Watusi, composites are the Senepol, Bonsmara and Barzona, assuming we consider the Afrikana a Sanga breed, as they are Zebu influenced and not pure Taurus Africanus.

We have Afrikana in United States? I don't know that.

Re: Let's Bicker

Posted: Sat Aug 12, 2017 3:56 pm
by Farm Fence Solutions
andybob wrote:Our solid commercials can be boring when compared to some of the older breeds, just a pity that commercial selection discriminates against colour in most cases - here is a tricolour Nguni calf to add to your pasture ornaments;
Image


Neat looking calf. I was surprised to see several herds of polled shorthorns on my last trip to the U.K. I know that's where the breed comes from, but more than half of the cattle I saw appeared to be shorthorns. They are definitely easier on the eyes than a solid colored calf.

Re: Let's Bicker

Posted: Sat Aug 12, 2017 4:46 pm
by Jeanne - Simme Valley
Although I loved the colorful patterns, I prefer the modern Simmental created by American breeders. We have made more advancement in our breed than most.
As I said, the Angus has changed just as much as the Simmental - other than color. So why isn't CG8 bashing the Angus for changing so much???
Chasing a color or pattern (white faces) is a poor selection criteria. I never bred to a black Simmental bull for many, many years. Just because they were black, did not make them quality bulls. I waited until there were black bulls better than my cows.

Re: Let's Bicker

Posted: Sat Aug 12, 2017 5:28 pm
by Bright Raven
Jeanne - Simme Valley wrote:Although I loved the colorful patterns, I prefer the modern Simmental created by American breeders. We have made more advancement in our breed than most.
As I said, the Angus has changed just as much as the Simmental - other than color. So why isn't CG8 bashing the Angus for changing so much???
Chasing a color or pattern (white faces) is a poor selection criteria. I never bred to a black Simmental bull for many, many years. Just because they were black, did not make them quality bulls. I waited until there were black bulls better than my cows.


Good explanation. There are often comments on this forum that mispresent the breeding history of the American Simmental breed. American Simmental Breeders were not just "chasing the black color", they had other objectives in the plan to improve the American Simmental. TT made the comment that he likes the old world Simmentals, I doubt many American Simmental Breeders would want to go backwards. Thanks for your explanation.

Re: Let's Bicker

Posted: Sat Aug 12, 2017 5:49 pm
by Jeanne - Simme Valley
You are welcome. I am extremely proud of the "modern" Simmental.
I tell everyone, "I don't care if my cow is red, black, or purple polka-dotted, just so it is GOOD"

Re: Let's Bicker

Posted: Sat Aug 12, 2017 6:26 pm
by Muddy
I really liked the improved fullblooded Fleckviehs of today.

Re: Let's Bicker

Posted: Sat Aug 12, 2017 11:38 pm
by WalnutCrest
dun wrote:
WalnutCrest wrote:No bickering here ...

I have two ampules on an old simmental bull from the 1970s in my tank.

They are free to any CT member on the condition I get to see pictures of the calves.

What bull?


I'm traveling and don't have my records... please feel free to raise this again this coming week if I've not gotten back to the group ...

Re: Let's Bicker

Posted: Sun Aug 13, 2017 3:32 am
by andybob
Muddy wrote:
andybob wrote:Muddy, pure breeds are the Tuli, Mashona and Watusi, composites are the Senepol, Bonsmara and Barzona, assuming we consider the Afrikana a Sanga breed, as they are Zebu influenced and not pure Taurus Africanus.

We have Afrikana in United States? I don't know that.

Sorry for the confusion, I was referring to the Afrikana content in the Bonsmara and Barzona, though it would be interesting to know what happened to the original Afrikana which were imported and used in the development of the Barzona. I know one rancher who says his grandfather had some, but they were crossed with their existing Indicus cattle and not retained as purebreds.

Re: Let's Bicker

Posted: Sun Aug 13, 2017 6:19 am
by TennesseeTuxedo
Bright Raven wrote:
Jeanne - Simme Valley wrote:Although I loved the colorful patterns, I prefer the modern Simmental created by American breeders. We have made more advancement in our breed than most.
As I said, the Angus has changed just as much as the Simmental - other than color. So why isn't CG8 bashing the Angus for changing so much???
Chasing a color or pattern (white faces) is a poor selection criteria. I never bred to a black Simmental bull for many, many years. Just because they were black, did not make them quality bulls. I waited until there were black bulls better than my cows.


Good explanation. There are often comments on this forum that mispresent the breeding history of the American Simmental breed. American Simmental Breeders were not just "chasing the black color", they had other objectives in the plan to improve the American Simmental. TT made the comment that he likes the old world Simmentals, I doubt many American Simmental Breeders would want to go backwards. Thanks for your explanation.


So what moved the breed "foreword"?

Re: Let's Bicker

Posted: Sun Aug 13, 2017 6:30 am
by Bright Raven
TennesseeTuxedo wrote:
Bright Raven wrote:
Jeanne - Simme Valley wrote:Although I loved the colorful patterns, I prefer the modern Simmental created by American breeders. We have made more advancement in our breed than most.
As I said, the Angus has changed just as much as the Simmental - other than color. So why isn't CG8 bashing the Angus for changing so much???
Chasing a color or pattern (white faces) is a poor selection criteria. I never bred to a black Simmental bull for many, many years. Just because they were black, did not make them quality bulls. I waited until there were black bulls better than my cows.


Good explanation. There are often comments on this forum that mispresent the breeding history of the American Simmental breed. American Simmental Breeders were not just "chasing the black color", they had other objectives in the plan to improve the American Simmental. TT made the comment that he likes the old world Simmentals, I doubt many American Simmental Breeders would want to go backwards. Thanks for your explanation.


So what moved the breed "foreword"?


SELECTIVE breeding within the breeds gene pool. Breeders started with old world Simmentals and by selecting for desirable traits they progressed toward the modern American Simmental. Breeding is a work in progress striving to achieve the ideal characteristics.

Sometimes the traits that the breeders covet changes so it is a moving target and the work is never finished. The old world Simmentals were a multipurpose bovine. The American Simmental is a beef breed. American Breeders sought to moderate size, improve calving ease and select for black pelage. The result is the American Simmental.