We need more Lower Tier Bulls

Discuss the advantages and disadvantages of your favorite breed.

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Bright Raven
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Re: We need more Lower Tier Bulls

Postby Bright Raven » Tue May 16, 2017 3:04 pm

dun wrote:
Bright Raven wrote:
FlyingLSimmentals wrote:I wouldn't change anything with just 16 cows especially with your skills. Just saying AI calves aren't always terrifically better or better at all. I wouldn't have gave out the top figure "$2,500" I would pay for a bull and try and sell a bull higher. I understand now because you have 16 cows but still don't think I would have stated it unless my bulls for sale were always gonna be $2500 and below.


AI is perfect for me. Fire Sweep knows the pedigrees and phenotype of my cows. She sees my cows every year. With one bull, I don't have many options for matching bulls to the cow. For example, if I have a cow that is framey, she matches it to a bull that will help. She also compliments the cow with bulls that promote their traits.

I should not have set a dollar amount. I should simply say, I have no intentions of buying a bull or growing a bull to breed my cows.

Until a few years ago we did 100% AI. Now with the problems that have come up I don;t have the strength to do it as much now. Even when I can get someone to help it isn;t as convenient. That's why we run a bull with a most and then AI only a dozen or so. If They don;pt settle to AI they go see the bull. Using bulls we raised is rewarding but not nearly as much as when I did all the AI work myself. I felt like a proud pappa every time a calf was born.


I do too. I know the feeling.
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True Grit Farms
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Re: We need more Lower Tier Bulls

Postby True Grit Farms » Tue May 16, 2017 3:44 pm

Bright Raven wrote:
True Grit Farms wrote:Raven folks like you are a double edged sword. On one hand they help the seedstock market, on the other they damage it tremendously. The only difference is some folks have better cows. The larger seedstock producer has a larger pool to draw from, looks and EPD wise. Everyone has the same bulls available to them through AI.
Raven how many calves out of your 16 cows are going to end up at the sale barn being sold as feeder calves?


I would estimate 25 per cent. I retain my best at least for now. As long as the people who buy them are happy. Then I am too.

I am not expecting a monument to be erected after I die saying, "Here lies the man who advanced Simmentals into the next century".

I guarantee every heifer I sell is with the calf that I say she is bred to. I will even pay for the DNA test if the buyer decides to perform it.

IMO: Vince, you are deluding yourself about what is going on in the cattle markets. You present it like it is a sacred mission. People have been selling and trading cattle of all kinds and qualities since they were domesticated from Aurochs. It is amusing reading some of your naive posts. Please keep it up. :D


I just try and do what I feel is right for the situation. I'm going to do my best to make sure that the phenotype is correct on the cattle that I sell as seedstock. Genomic testing and EPD'S don't mean anything if the animal has a bad udder or wrong color, or color in the wrong spots. And to make matters worse, lots of times a bad udder won't show up till just before - after the first calf. I usually cull for bad udders, and the wrong color goes into my commercial or recip herd.
My cull rate is 70-80% on seedstock. But I don't want to sell anything off the farm anymore.
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Re: We need more Lower Tier Bulls

Postby TexasBred » Tue May 16, 2017 4:15 pm

True Grit Farms wrote:
Bright Raven wrote:
True Grit Farms wrote:Raven folks like you are a double edged sword. On one hand they help the seedstock market, on the other they damage it tremendously. The only difference is some folks have better cows. The larger seedstock producer has a larger pool to draw from, looks and EPD wise. Everyone has the same bulls available to them through AI.
Raven how many calves out of your 16 cows are going to end up at the sale barn being sold as feeder calves?


I would estimate 25 per cent. I retain my best at least for now. As long as the people who buy them are happy. Then I am too.

I am not expecting a monument to be erected after I die saying, "Here lies the man who advanced Simmentals into the next century".

I guarantee every heifer I sell is with the calf that I say she is bred to. I will even pay for the DNA test if the buyer decides to perform it.

IMO: Vince, you are deluding yourself about what is going on in the cattle markets. You present it like it is a sacred mission. People have been selling and trading cattle of all kinds and qualities since they were domesticated from Aurochs. It is amusing reading some of your naive posts. Please keep it up. :D


I just try and do what I feel is right for the situation. I'm going to do my best to make sure that the phenotype is correct on the cattle that I sell as seedstock. Genomic testing and EPD'S don't mean anything if the animal has a bad udder or wrong color, or color in the wrong spots. And to make matters worse, lots of times a bad udder won't show up till just before - after the first calf. I usually cull for bad udders, and the wrong color goes into my commercial or recip herd.
My cull rate is 70-80% on seedstock. But I don't want to sell anything off the farm anymore.

I won't have a bad udder on the place either. Not even on a beef cow. When we use to dairy I would tell folks that if you see one you don't like I'll give her to you. Never lost one.
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Re: We need more Lower Tier Bulls

Postby Nesikep » Tue May 16, 2017 5:07 pm

I don't know if I'd get as much satisfaction (read, feel like a proud daddy) if I AI'd my cows rather than having picked a bull calf, using him, and seeing good results.. I find that really rewarding. I don't have EPD numbers to go by, but know the family tree for 6 generations and know the strengths and weaknesses of each animal along the line,.. I too try and pick the bull calf that will 'guide' the majority of my herd toward the phenotype I'm looking for... As an example, I have a number of large framed cows (read: too big), so I certainly am looking for a bull calf that fills in the frame, and moderates the frame score a little.

Like Flying L, I too notice the challenges of maintaining a small herd, let along improving using only one bull at a time... One thing that is helping me is that in cooperation with a friend of mine, we're starting to do bull swaps.. He has a small herd, so spending big money on a bull isn't in it for him, using a bull of mine gives me a place to "put" him for a while, see how he performs elsewhere, and the option of getting him back. For him, his cost is only feed, the bull I get back will typically be heavier than the one he gets.
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Re: We need more Lower Tier Bulls

Postby FlyingLSimmentals » Sat May 20, 2017 8:12 am

Most Want Good Bulls at Lower Tier Prices, really bad in wky. I've told ones around here what bulls have sold for at different Seed Stock Sales I've attended in the past and it's like a gasket blows out upstairs. Guess it may be a reason why cattle is getting very thin in WKY especially my county, when the prices got high at the sale barns everyone tried to hit the jackpot and sold everything. Was too expensive to buy new herds, bulls, etc... Went to cropping all those cattle acres and began to watch them wash away. Although now several are cashing them out to the Amish for big money. I suppose the Amish will fix the gullies and ditches.
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Re: We need more Lower Tier Bulls

Postby FlyingLSimmentals » Sat May 20, 2017 8:17 am

Probably have their kids just out of diapers fill all them gullies in that stupid adult made.
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Re: We need more Lower Tier Bulls

Postby Bright Raven » Sat May 20, 2017 8:50 am

FlyingLSimmentals wrote:Most Want Good Bulls at Lower Tier Prices, really bad in wky. I've told ones around here what bulls have sold for at different Seed Stock Sales I've attended in the past and it's like a gasket blows out upstairs. Guess it may be a reason why cattle is getting very thin in WKY especially my county, when the prices got high at the sale barns everyone tried to hit the jackpot and sold everything. Was too expensive to buy new herds, bulls, etc... Went to cropping all those cattle acres and began to watch them wash away. Although now several are cashing them out to the Amish for big money. I suppose the Amish will fix the gullies and ditches.


The seedstock producers selling bulls in this market are struggling. That includes the ones around here who have the lower tier registered bulls. Most of which never get registered unless the buyer needs the registration for cost share reimbursement. A friend bought a black Angus bull with cost share money. The bull had to be registered to demonstrate that it meets the CAIP CE number which has to be 10 or above. The objective is to help producers improve genetics. The bull is 3 now and weighs about 1300 pounds. He is poor by any standard.

There is a market for lower tier bulls. I don't see how they make money growing a bull to 15 to 18 months and selling for 1200 to 1500.
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Re: We need more Lower Tier Bulls

Postby Nesikep » Sat May 20, 2017 10:03 am

If he's 3 years old and 1300 lbs, I think you can see how they (might) make money.. they don't feed them.. anything.. ever..
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Re: We need more Lower Tier Bulls

Postby Bright Raven » Sat May 20, 2017 10:15 am

Nesikep wrote:If he's 3 years old and 1300 lbs, I think you can see how they (might) make money.. they don't feed them.. anything.. ever..


He was 15 months old when the guy bought him. He put him immediately out with the cows. He came out of the first winter looking like a skinny snake. I saw him in October when I did his vaccinations. He did not look more than 300 pounds bigger. He is small framed, the result of wanting nothing but calving ease.
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Re: We need more Lower Tier Bulls

Postby Son of Butch » Sat May 20, 2017 10:17 am

True Grit Farms wrote:My cull rate is 70-80% on seedstock. But I don't want to sell anything off the farm anymore.

How do you prefer selling them?
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Re: We need more Lower Tier Bulls

Postby elkwc » Sat May 20, 2017 11:10 am

Bright Raven wrote:
FlyingLSimmentals wrote:Most Want Good Bulls at Lower Tier Prices, really bad in wky. I've told ones around here what bulls have sold for at different Seed Stock Sales I've attended in the past and it's like a gasket blows out upstairs. Guess it may be a reason why cattle is getting very thin in WKY especially my county, when the prices got high at the sale barns everyone tried to hit the jackpot and sold everything. Was too expensive to buy new herds, bulls, etc... Went to cropping all those cattle acres and began to watch them wash away. Although now several are cashing them out to the Amish for big money. I suppose the Amish will fix the gullies and ditches.


The seedstock producers selling bulls in this market are struggling. That includes the ones around here who have the lower tier registered bulls. Most of which never get registered unless the buyer needs the registration for cost share reimbursement. A friend bought a black Angus bull with cost share money. The bull had to be registered to demonstrate that it meets the CAIP CE number which has to be 10 or above. The objective is to help producers improve genetics. The bull is 3 now and weighs about 1300 pounds. He is poor by any standard.

There is a market for lower tier bulls. I don't see how they make money growing a bull to 15 to 18 months and selling for 1200 to 1500.


Bright Raven I agree with your post. It is a tough market. And there are many reasons and I'm sure they vary some by region. We haven't seen as many of the bulls priced below $2,000 around here yet but sure we will see more. The reasons are multiple here. Many breeders including commercial breeders started keeping back calves to sell as bulls instead of using the knife on them. The same can be said of PB breeders.When you see a PB breeder says he has 200 cows and sells around 90 bulls or more every year he isn't culling very hard. I can remember when PB breeders used the knife on 50% or more of their bull calves. The last few years I've seen as little as 10% were cut. Many with defects and structural soundness issues never felt the knife. It is the greed for more money that drove the decision to leave more calves of lesser quality or with issues as bulls. So today a lot of bull pastures are full and the breeders around here have been reluctant to come down. When they do it will likely be below 2 and many will likely sell by the pound at a sale barn. To put it simply there are more bulls than there is demand. With that being said I hate to see lower quality bulls being used but can understand why.
Does anyone in your area lease bulls? We have seen more of it in our area. In fact the lady I go with and help leased one 2 years ago. He was an young bull that we didn't need that year and a small breeder with 10 hd needed a bull. He usually just leases one around the area who has an extra. He usually gets a decent quality bull most years. He paid for the test on both ends, he came back in good shape and had grown a lot and he paid her $300.00. So she was happy and he was also. I know most leases around here are for more and for 60-90 days. But for a smaller breeder it is an option. As the bull owner if I didn't really know who was leasing him I would be hesitant. But know of a few who do it and say overall it works for them.

I agree with you in that I don't know how a breeder can sell a bull for 1,200-1,500 and stay in business. But again everyone has a different situation and inputs.
Last edited by elkwc on Sat May 20, 2017 12:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: We need more Lower Tier Bulls

Postby Bright Raven » Sat May 20, 2017 11:34 am

elkwc wrote:
Bright Raven wrote:
FlyingLSimmentals wrote:Most Want Good Bulls at Lower Tier Prices, really bad in wky. I've told ones around here what bulls have sold for at different Seed Stock Sales I've attended in the past and it's like a gasket blows out upstairs. Guess it may be a reason why cattle is getting very thin in WKY especially my county, when the prices got high at the sale barns everyone tried to hit the jackpot and sold everything. Was too expensive to buy new herds, bulls, etc... Went to cropping all those cattle acres and began to watch them wash away. Although now several are cashing them out to the Amish for big money. I suppose the Amish will fix the gullies and ditches.


The seedstock producers selling bulls in this market are struggling. That includes the ones around here who have the lower tier registered bulls. Most of which never get registered unless the buyer needs the registration for cost share reimbursement. A friend bought a black Angus bull with cost share money. The bull had to be registered to demonstrate that it meets the CAIP CE number which has to be 10 or above. The objective is to help producers improve genetics. The bull is 3 now and weighs about 1300 pounds. He is poor by any standard.

There is a market for lower tier bulls. I don't see how they make money growing a bull to 15 to 18 months and selling for 1200 to 1500.


Bright Raven I agree with your post. It is a tough market. And there are many reasons and I'm sure they vary some by region. We haven't seen as many of the bulls priced below $2,000 around here yet but sure we will see more. The reasons are multiple here. 1. Many breeders including commercial breeders started keeping back calves to sell as bulls instead of using the knife on them. The same can be said of PB breeders.When you see a PB breeder says he has 200 cows and sells around 90 bulls or more every year he isn't culling very hard. I can remember when PB breeders used the knife on 50% or more of their bull calves. The last few years I've seen as little as 10% were cut. Many with defects and structural soundness issues. It is the greed for more money that drove the decision to leave more calves of lesser quality or with issues as bulls. So today a lot of bull pastures are full and the breeders around here have been reluctant to come down. When they do it will likely be below 2 and many will likely sell by the pound at a sale barn. To put it simply there are more bulls than there is demand. With that being said I hate to see lower quality bulls being used but can understand why.
2. Does anyone in your area lease bulls? We have seen more of it in our area. In fact the lady I go with and help leased one 2 years ago. He was an extra young bull that we didn't need that year and a small breeder with 10 hd needed a bull. He usually just leases one. He usually gets a decent quality bull most years. He paid for the test on both ends, he came back in good shape and had grown a lot and he paid her $300.00. So she was happy and he was also. I know most leases around here are for more and for 60-90 days. But for a smaller breeder it is an option. As the bull owner if I didn't really know who was leasing him I would be hesitant too. But know of a few who do it and say overall it works for them.

3. I agree with you in that I don't know how a breeder can sell a bull for 1,200-1,500 and stay in business. But again everyone has a different situation and inputs.


1. Yep. I see registered Simmental Bulls of excellent pedigree with bad claws, etc. Amazing how many buyers are inexperienced at judging animals. But don't tell True Grit that we think seedstock producers are pushing bulls out to the buyer that should be culled. He will get all puffed up like an Amazon Tree Frog. :D

2. Yes they do lease here and it works great for the guys who have narrow calving windows. That keep a bull for 3 months and he is gone. Then they get to enjoy 9 months with just the girls to manage. I leased my last bull. Guy paid me $500 for three month lease. November, December and January.

3. I read CBs comments to you on retained heifers. I have to agree with him on some points: I don't think many in the farming community do a good job of counting all their costs. Right now I am picturing the operation that sold my friend a bull for $1500. The bull was 15 or 16 months old. If this operation was not a long standing operation run by a very simple older gentleman who likes to help people out, he would be out of business. I know the gentleman. He actually told me that it bothers him to charge people what other seedstock producers charge. BTW: he does no AI, no ET. His herd has been closed since Hector was a pup with no modern genetics. He runs a line of angus that probably his dad ran.
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Re: We need more Lower Tier Bulls

Postby True Grit Farms » Sat May 20, 2017 11:46 am

Son of Butch wrote:
True Grit Farms wrote:My cull rate is 70-80% on seedstock. But I don't want to sell anything off the farm anymore.

How do you prefer selling them?


My preference is at auction, at the sale barn through a breeders or pre - condition sale. I like the elite and heifer evaluation sales also. But this year I'd of done better selling through the sale barns at the different specialty sales they have. I had a couple of guy's ask me "what's your best price on those heifers" this year again. I told them and then they offered me less, and that didn't work out very well for either of us.
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Re: We need more Lower Tier Bulls

Postby Caustic Burno » Sat May 20, 2017 11:54 am

:tiphat:
True Grit Farms wrote:
Son of Butch wrote:
True Grit Farms wrote:My cull rate is 70-80% on seedstock. But I don't want to sell anything off the farm anymore.

How do you prefer selling them?


My preference is at auction, at the sale barn through a breeders or pre - condition sale. I like the elite and heifer evaluation sales also. But this year I'd of done better selling through the sale barns at the different specialty sales they have. I had a couple of guy's ask me "what's your best price on those heifers" this year again. I told them and then they offered me less, and that didn't work out very well for either of us.

:tiphat: :clap:
A true seedstock producer Grit.
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Re: We need more Lower Tier Bulls

Postby Nesikep » Sun May 21, 2017 1:36 am

I think everything has it's place... I'm not in the market for structurally unsound animals, and honestly I think there's plenty of good animals at reasonable prices you don't need to go there. So far I've never charged a premium for a bull I raised, basically sold them at the price of an equivalent steer. I don't see myself being a seedstock producer for 20 years, if ever, and don't find it conscionable to charge a premium at this point.. Perhaps as I'm more experienced, and have a tighter bred, more predictable herd that I just KNOW an animal will perform, that will change
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