Young Angus bulls

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Son of Butch
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Re: Young Angus bulls

Postby Son of Butch » Mon May 22, 2017 6:18 am

elkwc wrote:
KNERSIE wrote:And hard keeping daughters...

Just curious what makes you think hard keeping daughters?

Extra heavy milk production cows have higher energy requirements to produce the extra milk, maintain body condition
and breed back in a timely manner. They are the first to suffer when times get lean and so become hard doers.

A long neck, sharp withers, flat rib bones, and flat lean thighs are all dairy characteristics indicative of higher than
average milk production. Some breeders refer to angular cattle exhibiting dairy character as Sharp and when referring
to thicker beefier cattle they would say Round. The use of the terms Sharp and Round when describing cattle goes
back to old timers evaluating dual purpose breeds. I like it because it's simple to understand and accurate in predicting
the type of offspring an individual can be expected to sire. IF your cows are round, round, round then using a Sharp
sire will produce more balanced productive offspring than breeding round, round, round cattle to a round bull.

I consider the bull I pointed out as exhibiting sharp, sharp, round traits for an angus sire.
A secondary trait of a Sharp sire quite often can be spread rear toes. I don't believe the bull pictured has them
and that is why I said sharp, sharp, round. Round cattle usually will have a nice tight foot.
Being "cow hocked" is another secondary fault trait associated with Sharp cattle.
There is a need or place for both Sharp and Round bulls and knowing when and why to select which is what makes
cattle breeding more of an art than a science in the minds of many old school cattlemen.
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Re: Young Angus bulls

Postby TennesseeTuxedo » Mon May 22, 2017 6:38 am

Son of Butch wrote:
elkwc wrote:
KNERSIE wrote:And hard keeping daughters...

Just curious what makes you think hard keeping daughters?

Extra heavy milk production cows have higher energy requirements to produce the extra milk, maintain body condition
and breed back in a timely manner. They are the first to suffer when times get lean and so become hard doers.

A long neck, sharp withers, flat rib bones, and flat lean thighs are all dairy characteristics indicative of higher than
average milk production. Some breeders refer to angular cattle exhibiting dairy character as Sharp and when referring
to thicker beefier cattle they would say Round. The use of the terms Sharp and Round when describing cattle goes
back to old timers evaluating dual purpose breeds. I like it because it's simple to understand and accurate in predicting
the type of offspring an individual can be expected to sire. IF your cows are round, round, round then using a Sharp
sire will produce more balanced productive offspring than breeding round, round, round cattle to a round bull.

I consider the bull I pointed out as exhibiting sharp, sharp, round traits for an angus sire.
A secondary trait of a Sharp sire quite often can be spread rear toes. I don't believe the bull pictured has them
and that is why I said sharp, sharp, round. Round cattle usually will have a nice tight foot.
Being "cow hocked" is another secondary fault trait associated with Sharp cattle.
There is a need or place for both Sharp and Round bulls and knowing when and why to select which is what makes
cattle breeding more of an art than a science in the minds of many old school cattlemen.


Very informative. Thanks for sharing.
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Bright Raven
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Re: Young Angus bulls

Postby Bright Raven » Mon May 22, 2017 6:50 am

Son of Butch wrote:
elkwc wrote:
KNERSIE wrote:And hard keeping daughters...

Just curious what makes you think hard keeping daughters?

Extra heavy milk production cows have higher energy requirements to produce the extra milk, maintain body condition
and breed back in a timely manner. They are the first to suffer when times get lean and so become hard doers.

A long neck, sharp withers, flat rib bones, and flat lean thighs are all dairy characteristics indicative of higher than
average milk production. Some breeders refer to angular cattle exhibiting dairy character as Sharp and when referring
to thicker beefier cattle they would say Round. The use of the terms Sharp and Round when describing cattle goes
back to old timers evaluating dual purpose breeds. I like it because it's simple to understand and accurate in predicting
the type of offspring an individual can be expected to sire. IF your cows are round, round, round then using a Sharp
sire will produce more balanced productive offspring than breeding round, round, round cattle to a round bull.

I consider the bull I pointed out as exhibiting sharp, sharp, round traits for an angus sire.
A secondary trait of a Sharp sire quite often can be spread rear toes. I don't believe the bull pictured has them
and that is why I said sharp, sharp, round. Round cattle usually will have a nice tight foot.
Being "cow hocked" is another secondary fault trait associated with Sharp cattle.
There is a need or place for both Sharp and Round bulls and knowing when and why to select which is what makes
cattle breeding more of an art than a science in the minds of many old school cattlemen.


Well explained. News one can use!!!!

Describe cow hocked. I have heard sickle hocked and a couple other types but not cow hocked.
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Re: Young Angus bulls

Postby Bright Raven » Mon May 22, 2017 7:03 am

Butch,

I think I got the cow hocked trait explained. Comment on the picture if you wish.

Image
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Re: Young Angus bulls

Postby Brute 23 » Mon May 22, 2017 7:08 am

Post Oak wrote:
Brute 23 wrote:
Ky hills wrote:
Thanks for the warning. We don't consider ourselves as being in the north though, maybe my rebellious side coming through with posting that picture :lol2:


Please accept my deepest apology, I meant no offense. :tiphat: I meant north of the Brahman line... not the Mason-Dixon.


Where is the Brahman Line? I have always been told I-20.


I think its creeping up further north due to global warming now. :D
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Re: Young Angus bulls

Postby KNERSIE » Sat Jun 03, 2017 8:55 am

elkwc wrote:
KNERSIE wrote:And hard keeping daughters...
Just curious what makes you think hard keeping daughters?

The bull is out of balance and very long fronted. Add to that the light muscle and the dryness of the gaskins tells me his daughters will lean towards a very angular type. Combine that with the complete lack of spring of rib and the odds are very much against them being easy doers.
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Re: Young Angus bulls

Postby KNERSIE » Sat Jun 03, 2017 9:00 am

Son of Butch wrote:
elkwc wrote:
KNERSIE wrote:And hard keeping daughters...

Just curious what makes you think hard keeping daughters?

Extra heavy milk production cows have higher energy requirements to produce the extra milk, maintain body condition
and breed back in a timely manner. They are the first to suffer when times get lean and so become hard doers.

A long neck, sharp withers, flat rib bones, and flat lean thighs are all dairy characteristics indicative of higher than
average milk production. Some breeders refer to angular cattle exhibiting dairy character as Sharp and when referring
to thicker beefier cattle they would say Round. The use of the terms Sharp and Round when describing cattle goes
back to old timers evaluating dual purpose breeds. I like it because it's simple to understand and accurate in predicting
the type of offspring an individual can be expected to sire. IF your cows are round, round, round then using a Sharp
sire will produce more balanced productive offspring than breeding round, round, round cattle to a round bull.

I consider the bull I pointed out as exhibiting sharp, sharp, round traits for an angus sire.
A secondary trait of a Sharp sire quite often can be spread rear toes. I don't believe the bull pictured has them
and that is why I said sharp, sharp, round. Round cattle usually will have a nice tight foot.
Being "cow hocked" is another secondary fault trait associated with Sharp cattle.
There is a need or place for both Sharp and Round bulls and knowing when and why to select which is what makes
cattle breeding more of an art than a science in the minds of many old school cattlemen.

Very good post. I've posted my reply before seeing yours. You've explained it very well and in good detail.

There is hope yet for the next generation if stockmen.
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Re: Young Angus bulls

Postby djinwa » Sat Jun 03, 2017 8:18 pm

Son of Butch wrote:
elkwc wrote:
KNERSIE wrote:And hard keeping daughters...

Just curious what makes you think hard keeping daughters?

Extra heavy milk production cows have higher energy requirements to produce the extra milk, maintain body condition
and breed back in a timely manner. They are the first to suffer when times get lean and so become hard doers.

A long neck, sharp withers, flat rib bones, and flat lean thighs are all dairy characteristics indicative of higher than
average milk production. Some breeders refer to angular cattle exhibiting dairy character as Sharp and when referring
to thicker beefier cattle they would say Round. The use of the terms Sharp and Round when describing cattle goes
back to old timers evaluating dual purpose breeds. I like it because it's simple to understand and accurate in predicting
the type of offspring an individual can be expected to sire. IF your cows are round, round, round then using a Sharp
sire will produce more balanced productive offspring than breeding round, round, round cattle to a round bull.

I consider the bull I pointed out as exhibiting sharp, sharp, round traits for an angus sire.
A secondary trait of a Sharp sire quite often can be spread rear toes. I don't believe the bull pictured has them
and that is why I said sharp, sharp, round. Round cattle usually will have a nice tight foot.
Being "cow hocked" is another secondary fault trait associated with Sharp cattle.
There is a need or place for both Sharp and Round bulls and knowing when and why to select which is what makes
cattle breeding more of an art than a science in the minds of many old school cattlemen.


Do sharp cattle have to produce more milk? I'm thinking Longhorn.

As for hard-doing, almost seems like muscle is as big a problem as milk, as muscle tissue is metabolically active and requires more calories to maintain.

I have had just a few cows the past few years, so was able to observe closely. Both about the same frame size. One was "round" and the other "sharp". Though supposedly beef cows, I was milking them occasionally for the family. The sharp cow gave much more milk, and I've concluded by her udder and type that she had some jersey in her.

Despite the extra milk, the sharp cow had much less appetite than the round cow. Had to separate them to feed or the round cow would leave little for the other. Ended up butchering the round cow as couldn't stand to see the pig eat so much.

Bred both to same AI bull. Weighed their steer calves after 16 months of age, and despite all the increased eating, the round cow's steer only weighed 20 pounds more.

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/ar ... 2816300281

Although frame size or mature height of popular cattle breeds has not increased since about 1987, phenotypic and genetic trends indicate that mature cow weight continues to escalate. This trend is largely due to the continued aggressive selection for rapid growth and increased muscling. These result in cattle with increased appetite, a greater proportion of their body weight in visceral organ mass, overall leaner body composition at a constant mature weight, and potentially lower overall fertility.
------------------------------
If a ranch is large enough, managers may consider selecting growth bulls to produce market calves and maternal bulls selected for the best possible environmental match to produce heifer replacements.
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Re: Young Angus bulls

Postby GAonmymind » Sat Jun 03, 2017 8:47 pm

EVERY time I come on this site I learn something new. THANK YOU Son of Butch!!
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Re: Young Angus bulls

Postby Nesikep » Sat Jun 03, 2017 11:33 pm

While I think the stereotype is justified for "sharp" and "round" body types and milk production, feed requirements, etc, I think there are always exceptions to the rule... I've had a few smaller cows that ate like pigs and produced nothing to show for it, and I have some big cows that are modest eaters, stay fat, and raise whoppers every year... Every once in a while I get one that's not too big, doesn't eat too much, and raises good calves.. those are the kind I like, and hope to propagate.. My current homeraised bull is from one such line, and his full sisters are great examples.. One sister is more the "sharp" type and the other a little more "round".. interestingly enough this year's daughter of the "sharp" one is most definitely "round", probably the 2nd meatiest heifer calf this year
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Re: Young Angus bulls

Postby gizmom » Sun Jun 04, 2017 8:00 am

SOB

You nailed it! :tiphat: :tiphat:
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Re: Young Angus bulls

Postby djinwa » Sun Jun 04, 2017 10:56 am

There are other factors that affect appetite, but my point is the physiologic fact that more muscle in a cowherd requires more feed.

Many round cows said to be easy-keepers actually just eat alot. So in a limited feed situation, need to limit milk and muscle.

Many seem to think muscle is nothing but good in their cowherd. So we make cows with the same bulls used to make meat - two different operations.

There may be other reasons to do so, such as uniformity of calves, but from an efficiency standpoint, doesn't make sense. That ag econ class ruined me for life.

As I've posted before, it is fascinating how little interest there is in cow efficiency - only recently beginning to be studied.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_6hSQMz8hyo

This same guy said last year,

http://www.cattlenetwork.com/advice-and ... nvironment

There is little to no evidence that cow efficiency is improving.
· Commercial cow herds are on an unsustainable path for some genetic traits.
· Cows are not getting taller, but are getting bigger.
· The cow-calf sector overall can’t seem to get enough milk production and muscle growth.
· Feed inputs and costs per cow-calf pair continue to increase, and production is not keeping up with those costs.
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