What is hereditary from a cow

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Bright Raven
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Re: What is hereditary from a cow

Postby Bright Raven » Mon May 22, 2017 7:36 pm

Chocolate Cow wrote:Bonsma said everything is determined at the moment of conception.


The egg contributes half (haploid number) the chromosomes; the sperm contributes the other half (haploid number). They combine to form a zygote (diploid number). From the standpoint of genetic material, yes, it is all there at the moment of conception.

There is the effect that the environment plays. For example, two identical genomes will respond differently if the nutrition levels are vastly different, etc.
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Re: What is hereditary from a cow

Postby Bright Raven » Mon May 22, 2017 7:51 pm

Angus Rocks ask:

1. why is everybody so concerned about getting this bull or that bull if they don't pass some good traits on?

Response: the bull contributes half the chromosomes. In cattle, there are 60 chromosomes. So his spermatozoa will contribute 30 chromosomes to the offspring. If he is a proven bull that has demonstrated that he carries dominant desirable traits, he will have a positive effect on the offspring.

2. One other question, does udder and teat layout on a bull pass on to its offspring?

Response: The bull will influence udder and teat characteristics. If the bulls ancestors had desirable udder and teat traits, he will pass those traits on to his offspring especially if he is a bull that has demonstrated that he passes on good udder and teat traits in the expression of his dominant genes.

Note: keep in mind, the cow will also have an influence on the offspring.
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Re: What is hereditary from a cow

Postby gizmom » Mon May 22, 2017 8:41 pm

I confess I have not read all the replys to thread. Some traits are more heritable than others.

California State University-Fresno animal
scientist Randy Perry says cows don’t have
to be “pretty-uddered” to be functional in a
commercial beef herd. However, anecdotal
evidence suggests udder quality, on an
industry-wide basis, may have deteriorated.
Certainly, there is considerable variation
among and within herds.
Breed differences show there is a genetic
component to udder quality. It is considered
at least moderately heritable and geneticists
estimate its heritability is somewhere between
0.16 and 0.22

The boss is a bit demanding as far as udder quality, hoof quality oh yea then their is frame muscle depth of body come to think of it he is just pretty dang demanding on many levels. I make breeding selections based on strengths and weakness. If a cow has a weakness in a certain area then I try to select a bull that is know to be very strong for that trait. Bulls selected for natural service are going to be out of our top cows, and they will have been at the top end of the calf crop for performance. We don't have a perfect herd but it does get better every year, and I think that is what we should all be striving for. We should be looking for each calf crop to be better than the last. You can't correct a poor udder on a cow but you can breed that cow to a bull that will help improve the udder on her progeny. Knowing the strengths and weakness of your herd is the first step in correcting the weakness.

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Re: What is hereditary from a cow

Postby cow pollinater » Mon May 22, 2017 9:30 pm

Most of the udder and feet and leg traits are around 15% heritable so the way you make improvement there is to breed to the ideal with every mating. You might get lucky and get tons of improvement in one generation or you might get something as bad as what you started with but that's where you have to trust your inputs and keep going. If you breed to ideal long enough you will come out where you want to be.
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Re: What is hereditary from a cow

Postby WalnutCrest » Mon May 22, 2017 10:28 pm

Due to the very long gestational cycle, the smaller the herd, the more important it is to use more proven bulls (less risk, less chance of failure) ... and the larger the herd, the more important it is to experiment around the edges in hopes of making large improvements in the bulls used as a great bull can handle 500 cows / heifers in a 70 calving window. This is how great strides can get made.

..........

Math:

500 AI'd ... 167 didn't get bred and so get AI'd a wnd time ... of those 167, 2/3 get bred the 2nd time through the chute leaving roughly 58 girls for the bull to get two shots to cover ... any that are open failed two AI cycles and two bull cycles.
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Re: What is hereditary from a cow

Postby Son of Butch » Mon May 22, 2017 11:05 pm

cow pollinater wrote:Most of the udder.... traits are around 15% heritable so the way you make improvement there is to breed
to the ideal with every mating. You might get lucky and get tons of improvement in one generation
If you breed to ideal long enough you will come out where you want to be.

A proven example that it can and does happen.
Thousands of A.I. sires and hundreds of thousands offspring, before the stars finally aligned for the Holstein breed
to produce Round Oak Rag Apple Elevation a sire that consistently fixed udder problems in one generation.

Bulls have no more genetic influence on udders than cows.
However because bulls have hundreds of more offspring than a cow, the measured results are more reliable
in determining each sire's expected influence (good or bad) on their daughters udders.
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Re: What is hereditary from a cow

Postby Nesikep » Mon May 22, 2017 11:39 pm

Bright Raven wrote:Angus Rocks ask:

1. why is everybody so concerned about getting this bull or that bull if they don't pass some good traits on?

Response: the bull contributes half the chromosomes. In cattle, there are 60 chromosomes. So his spermatozoa will contribute 30 chromosomes to the offspring. If he is a proven bull that has demonstrated that he carries dominant desirable traits, he will have a positive effect on the offspring.


that 30 chromosomes passed from each parent,.. that the statistical average right? Correct me if I'm wrong, but in some cases the split may be 20/40 (to get the 60 chromosomes) from one parent or the other.

This leads in to this statement
cow pollinater wrote:Most of the udder.... traits are around 15% heritable so the way you make improvement there is to breed
to the ideal with every mating. You might get lucky and get tons of improvement in one generation
If you breed to ideal long enough you will come out where you want to be.

Once in a while you'll get an animal that's a spitting image of one parent despite a very unique other parent.. If you're lucky, you get a calf that just got the best genes each parent had to offer, and you've made some steps forward

And that leads to hetero/homozygous traits, where sometimes you have great animals that have failures for offspring.. Just taking color as an example, a hetero black cow bred to a red bull.. despite the cow having the trait you want, there's only a 50% chance of the offspring being black, and when you do get a black calf from that mating, they will still only have a 50% chance of black calves when bred to red bulls.
Now if the bull is also hetero black, you might be able to make some progress to lock in that black trait.. Now the calf has a 75% chance of being black, but also has a 25% chance of ALWAYS making black calves even when bred to a red bull.. NOW you're making progress
If the bull is homo-black, your odds are 100% for a black calf, and a 50% chance any given calf will ALWAYS have black calves.. If you've identified an animal as homozygous for an important trait, and breed it to other animals that are homozygous for that same trait, you will never stray.

Real life of course is a little more complicated.. Perhaps you want "good udder" gene? but there are no black bulls with that, so you'll have to settle for a red bull that carries (and is homozygous for it preferably) the "good udder" gene.. In this case EVERY one of the first generation offspring will be black and have good udders, but since they are all heterozygous, their offspring will be a very mixed bag.. If you select and breed carefully, you can work yourself back to having both the homozygous black and homozygous "good udder", but it will take time and a lot of effort
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Re: What is hereditary from a cow

Postby Son of Butch » Tue May 23, 2017 12:51 am

Nesikep wrote:
Bright Raven wrote: In cattle, there are 60 chromosomes. So his spermatozoa will contribute 30 chromosomes to the offspring.

If you're lucky, you get a calf that just got the best genes each parent had to offer, and you've made some steps forward

Perhaps you want "good udder" gene? but there are no black bulls with that ...

What are the odds of getting the best chromosomes each parent has to offer in a single mating?
3,600 to 1

Even if you did get the best genes each parent had to offer, IF both parents genes are below breed average then
did you really accomplish any breed progress?

A bit harsh on the assessment of black color gene = no good genes for udders... isn't it?

I'll stick with cow pollinator's advice of mating to ideal will eventually yield the most genetic progress.
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Re: What is hereditary from a cow

Postby Nesikep » Tue May 23, 2017 1:12 am

I don't think it's correct to calculate it that way.. you're interested in the best genes, and those (IIRC from biology class 20 year ago) are held in the chromosome.. so one chromosome may have some good genes and some undesirable ones.

I think I was a bit generous saying the black hide is the desireable trait! :P I had to pick a couple traits for the example.

I definitely agree you should mate to "ideal", but that is subjective, and truthfully it doesn't exist.. the best you can do is mate to the best that's available.
Remember 20-30 years ago when everyone was going for large frames??? Suddenly it went out of style (not surprisingly).. well, back then thankfully there were some animals around that were "below breed average" to bring us back from that craze... I'm sure there's lots more examples like it
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Re: What is hereditary from a cow

Postby Bright Raven » Tue May 23, 2017 5:35 am

Nesikep, excerpted from your post:

...that 30 chromosomes passed from each parent,.. that the statistical average right? Correct me if I'm wrong, but in some cases the split may be 20/40 (to get the 60 chromosomes) from one parent or the other.

In cattle where the diploid chromosome number is 60, 30 chromosomes are contributed by the egg and 30 are contributed by the sperm. That is not a statistical function. It is the normal state. There are chapters written in text books on abnormalities in chromosome number. Sometimes chromosomes adhere to their homologue when they line up on the equatorial plate during meiosis, and an extra chromosome is pulled into one of the gametes.

There is never 20 in the egg and 40 in the sperm to reach the diploid number of 60.
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Re: What is hereditary from a cow

Postby Bright Raven » Tue May 23, 2017 6:00 am

Angus Rocks

You don't have to be a great breeder or geneticist but there is one rule that can be summed up as follows:

Garbage in = Garbage out

If you want good solid functional cattle, you need a good bull and good cows.
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Re: What is hereditary from a cow

Postby TennesseeTuxedo » Tue May 23, 2017 6:58 am

Bright Raven wrote:Angus Rocks

You don't have to be a great breeder or geneticist but there is one rule that can be summed up as follows:

Garbage in = Garbage out

If you want good solid functional cattle, you need a good bull and good cows.


Finally a statement I could understand.
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Re: What is hereditary from a cow

Postby Angus Rocks » Tue May 23, 2017 8:11 am

Bright Raven wrote:Angus Rocks

You don't have to be a great breeder or geneticist but there is one rule that can be summed up as follows:

Garbage in = Garbage out

If you want good solid functional cattle, you need a good bull and good cows.


I am not planning on keeping the cow with the bad udder but she had a heifer calf this year and so that's why I was wondering what was hereditary so your saying if cow has bad udder don't keep calf either? We are keeping plenty of replacement heifers so we can cull our herd harder and get some of the less desirable cows on the road somewhere else
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Re: What is hereditary from a cow

Postby Bright Raven » Tue May 23, 2017 8:15 am

Angus Rocks wrote:
Bright Raven wrote:Angus Rocks

You don't have to be a great breeder or geneticist but there is one rule that can be summed up as follows:

Garbage in = Garbage out

If you want good solid functional cattle, you need a good bull and good cows.


I am not planning on keeping the cow with the bad udder but she had a heifer calf this year and so that's why I was wondering what was hereditary so your saying if cow has bad udder don't keep calf either? We are keeping plenty of replacement heifers so we can cull our herd harder and get some of the less desirable cows on the road somewhere else


I would not keep the calf if the mother had a poor udder. Especially if the udder is non-functional versus just looking bad.
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Re: What is hereditary from a cow

Postby Jeanne - Simme Valley » Tue May 23, 2017 8:36 am

It really doesn't make any difference what the grand-dam or siblings are like. The point is, your cow has a bad udder (a known fact to you) and the chances of her passing it on to her daughters is "probable". Why risk a 2-year investment in a female (daughter) with the potential of ending up with another bad uddered cow? You want to keep offspring from two parents that have all the traits you are looking for. No cow or bull is PERFECT, but you want to start your program with qualities you can make money with.
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