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Re: Blaze Face Simm Bull

Posted: Mon Aug 07, 2017 9:56 pm
by Gators Rule
cowgirl8 wrote:I stand my by opinion. As a sim person, todays sims are not sims, they are angus.....


I stand by my opinion too. As a fellow sim person, please tell me you got your clue at a deep discount!! I have mostly black sims, and I have simangus, and they look and act completely different, outside of color. Next door neighbor has registered angus, so I know what they look like too. Incidentally, most of my PBs have Flecks closer than angus.

To the OP, your sim bull will certainly fill out some more. Now, he looks a little pencil gutted and I'm not crazy about his legs. At 12 months his phenotype will probably change, maybe for the better. As for birth weight, my Simmental cattle probably average 70-80 lbs at birth when bred back to my Sim bull.

Re: Blaze Face Simm Bull

Posted: Tue Aug 08, 2017 3:58 am
by FlyingLSimmentals
If a Black Simmental isn't a Simmental then a Black Gelbvieh or a Black Limousin aren't Gelbvieh or Limousin either. I can tell the solid black simmy calves apart from the black Angus calves the most when they're young. The shades of black and the hair coats are different. Did have people think my Dream On son was a Black Angus. People with not a very good eye for cattle any way. I know our last 2 black simmy calves just born here from my Vegas bull sure reminded me of the 90's simmy calves. They're solid black but boy they got the frame of those colored calves of the 90's.
I agree with Gators R about the OP's bull calf.

Re: Blaze Face Simm Bull

Posted: Tue Aug 08, 2017 5:14 am
by cowgirl8
How about Hereford? Horned, polled and black..........so many strong opinions there. No matter what on them, they still all look like Herefords..lol...BUt not sims, look nothing like the fleck sims, nothing. Some our sims were giants, even if you painted them black, they'd look nothing like what they do today. I'm not saying they are bad, todays sims, I like them. But they should be called something else. Its like someone was joking around when they turned them black.... I'm just waiting for chars to be black at shows. Now, that would be funny. We'll see just how many char people from back in the day will voice their opinions.....lol Or what if they turned Holsteins into jerseys and still called them holsteins. People be saying, I can tell the difference, the emperor has on clothes, cant you see them......lol

Re: Blaze Face Simm Bull

Posted: Tue Aug 08, 2017 5:22 am
by Supa Dexta
As always, you're an idiot <Strong opinion, but accurate. I'm shocked that for someone who's an expert on knowing which calf came from godknows what bull just by looks, you can't tell the difference between a black sim and an angus.

If you knew anything about breeding, breeds have shifted their looks decade after decade, to vastly different beasts depending on what the market, or show scene called for. Sims have molded themselves into what the market now demands.

And the original holstien was closer to a jersey than what they are today.

.. And there are black charolais.

Re: Blaze Face Simm Bull

Posted: Tue Aug 08, 2017 5:57 am
by cowgirl8
Supa Dexta wrote:As always, you're an idiot <Strong opinion, but accurate. I'm shocked that for someone who's an expert on knowing which calf came from godknows what bull just by looks, you can't tell the difference between a black sim and an angus.

If you knew anything about breeding, breeds have shifted their looks decade after decade, to vastly different beasts depending on what the market, or show scene called for. Sims have molded themselves into what the market now demands.

And the original holstien was closer to a jersey than what they are today.

.. And there are black charolais.

Yeah, but are black chars excepted...
I cant tell always never said I can tell which bull produced what when they are all the same color. But, I can with the Hereford bull vs simangus. duh.... There is one bull, that I have mentioned that does throw calves with his haircoat. I'm assuming this is what you are referring to. Yall like to read into more than what I type, but some of his calves I can tell. We have one w/f bull that has a tad more simbra in him, I can tell some of his calves. Its like any other commercial business where you run 4 black bulls, you are not going to tell which bull threw what, period. But on occasion you can tell by certain things that are different with the bulls that maybe you can pick out one or two of his calves.
Not only has sims been turned into angus, but so have brangus. I saw a load of brangus bull at the vets a while back. I was not the only one who thought they were angus. The guy hauling him said no one can tell...lol.....

Re: Blaze Face Simm Bull

Posted: Tue Aug 08, 2017 5:59 am
by elkwc
Bright Raven wrote:
cowgirl8 wrote:
Bright Raven wrote:
Muddy is right. I think it was Lucky but not sure who posted a reference to DNA tests of the different breeds. Simmentals are no more polluted than the other breeds.

Not sure why there are arguments about Hereford, horned, polled, black....they all look like Hereford.
What makes it different is, we use to raise and show sims. Doesn't make me an expert, don't claim to be. But if a polled or black Hereford is not a Hereford, then a solid black angus looking cow isnt a sim... I don't think any of you know what a sim looked like in the 90s.


The genotype is a better measurement of impurity than phenotype. Someone on here posted a report based on DNA analysis that concluded that Simmentals retain 99% of their original genotype. I thought it might have been Lucky. What was interesting, was that Black Angus also retained a high level of their original purity.


I must of missed that post. Do you have any idea what thread it was in? I would like to read it as that is way different than most of the information that is available and the early reports from results of the new test being developed. I'm not singling out any breed as most have some impurity. I would like to read it if anyone can share a link.

Re: Blaze Face Simm Bull

Posted: Tue Aug 08, 2017 6:05 am
by M-5
Well I'll be dam . y'all are sure getting a genetics lesson . all you have to know is everything white is char, black is Angus , red is Hereford .

Re: Blaze Face Simm Bull

Posted: Tue Aug 08, 2017 6:13 am
by Bright Raven
elkwc wrote:
Bright Raven wrote:
cowgirl8 wrote:Not sure why there are arguments about Hereford, horned, polled, black....they all look like Hereford.
What makes it different is, we use to raise and show sims. Doesn't make me an expert, don't claim to be. But if a polled or black Hereford is not a Hereford, then a solid black angus looking cow isnt a sim... I don't think any of you know what a sim looked like in the 90s.


The genotype is a better measurement of impurity than phenotype. Someone on here posted a report based on DNA analysis that concluded that Simmentals retain 99% of their original genotype. I thought it might have been Lucky. What was interesting, was that Black Angus also retained a high level of their original purity.


I must of missed that post. Do you have any idea what thread it was in? I would like to read it as that is way different than most of the information that is available and the early reports from results of the new test being developed. I'm not singling out any breed as most have some impurity. I would like to read it if anyone can share a link.


I have been looking for it since yesterday. Right now, I am reading some DNA testing from various publications. Not having any luck.

Re: Blaze Face Simm Bull

Posted: Tue Aug 08, 2017 6:25 am
by Bright Raven
cowgirl8 wrote:Still stand by my opinion that todays sim is just a angus...


Consider this...

DNA tests use markers or DNA "fingerprints" to determine relationships in animals and plants.

This is maybe too complex but today almost all taxonomy is being defined based on DNA. For example, if a Black Rat Snake was classified as Elaphe obsoleta and a DNA test is conducted and there are more markers showing a relationship to another genus, then the Black Rat Snake will be reclassified. The Black Rat Snake is now Pantherophis obsoletus. I don't know if it was based on DNA but this example demonstrates the state of the science.

Ancestry can also be based on DNA testing. That is how they determine whether current day Simmentals are pure. They compare the current DNA "fingerprints" to DNA "fingerprints" of old line Simmentals. Someone posted on this. The findings were that today's Simmentals are remarkably the same genetic animals as the old line Simmentals.

Edited to add: The phenotype including color has changed, but the beasts are not Angus - they still retain their breed genotype.

PS: I don't agree with calling you names or insulting you because you hold a contrary opinion. That is a snowflake characteristic. I am happy to be able to present an opposing opinion.

Re: Blaze Face Simm Bull

Posted: Tue Aug 08, 2017 6:49 am
by ClinchValley
I knew better than to ask black Simm questions.

Re: Blaze Face Simm Bull

Posted: Tue Aug 08, 2017 6:53 am
by Bright Raven
ClinchValley wrote:I knew better than to ask black Simm questions.


Not a big deal. Everyone has a right to an opinion even if it is not well supported.

The important point is that Simmentals are still genetically Simmentals. Yes, traits have been modified by selective breeding like color, calving ease and size.

Re: Blaze Face Simm Bull

Posted: Tue Aug 08, 2017 7:08 am
by cowgirl8
ClinchValley wrote:I knew better than to ask black Simm questions.

I like black sims, I just believe they should be called something else. I have hundreds of sim/angus...
You want to start something, say you like polled black Herefords....lol

Re: Blaze Face Simm Bull

Posted: Tue Aug 08, 2017 8:30 am
by Ol' 243
Bright Raven wrote:
ClinchValley wrote:I knew better than to ask black Simm questions.


Not a big deal. Everyone has a right to an opinion even if it is not well supported.

The important point is that Simmentals are still genetically Simmentals. Yes, traits have been modified by selective breeding like color, calving ease and size.


Where ya been BR? Finally the other 50% of the knowledge on this board showed up. You need to get in every thread earlier, that way we don't gotta learn everything from a chick.

Re: Blaze Face Simm Bull

Posted: Tue Aug 08, 2017 8:33 am
by Bright Raven
Ol' 243 wrote:
Bright Raven wrote:
ClinchValley wrote:I knew better than to ask black Simm questions.


Not a big deal. Everyone has a right to an opinion even if it is not well supported.

The important point is that Simmentals are still genetically Simmentals. Yes, traits have been modified by selective breeding like color, calving ease and size.


Where ya been BR? Finally the other 50% of the knowledge on this board showed up. You need to get in every thread earlier, that way we don't gotta learn everything from a chick.


I was. I posted the first response. It got side tracked after that.

Re: Blaze Face Simm Bull

Posted: Tue Aug 08, 2017 8:37 am
by Ol' 243
Bright Raven wrote:
Ol' 243 wrote:
Bright Raven wrote:
Not a big deal. Everyone has a right to an opinion even if it is not well supported.

The important point is that Simmentals are still genetically Simmentals. Yes, traits have been modified by selective breeding like color, calving ease and size.


Where ya been BR? Finally the other 50% of the knowledge on this board showed up. You need to get in every thread earlier, that way we don't gotta learn everything from a chick.


I was. I posted the first response. It got side tracked after that.


Sorry, I musta skipped right over it. :lol: