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Re: Black Baldy?

Posted: Thu Sep 07, 2017 1:12 pm
by wacocowboy
I have seen a bunch of mott faces but never seen a tri colored face. She is cute.

Re: Black Baldy?

Posted: Thu Sep 07, 2017 1:20 pm
by Katpau
The original Angus were both reds and blacks and some also had some white. When the cattle were imported to the US and the Angus registry was formed, the decision was made to only allow black and solid. The Red Angus registry (RA) was originally formed because some wanted to preserve the red gene. Red is a recessive, so they never carry the black gene, however the black gene can hide the recessive red gene through many generations, so there are still a few Black Angus cattle that carry the red gene. It is possible now to do a genetic test to identify a red carrier, but unless a red calf is born, most do not test.

The markings on your calf are common, but the red spots within the black is something I have never seen. You can't really see it in the little photo that shows up on this thread, but if you click on it, it becomes apparent. I hope she retains these as she gets older because to me they are really neat. Sometimes black calves are born with a coat that looks red but they shed out black, so I hope that is not the case with her. I would like to see a full body shot of her. Does she have more of those red spots on her black body. What is the registration number of the Angus bull?

Re: Black Baldy?

Posted: Thu Sep 07, 2017 1:26 pm
by ALACOWMAN
No doubt with the genetics and testing that's done now, its cut down the amount of red carriers...

Re: Black Baldy?

Posted: Thu Sep 07, 2017 4:30 pm
by elkwc
Redfern I sent you a pm.

Re: Black Baldy?

Posted: Thu Sep 07, 2017 11:41 pm
by Hoser
Speckled face is what it's called in my neck of the woods. Flashy looking calf!

Re: Black Baldy?

Posted: Fri Sep 08, 2017 10:43 am
by Lucky_P
As previously stated, the red gene is still present in some purebred Angus cattle, and black commercial cattle may not be all 'Angus'... case in point, while many of the cows in my herd are black, and 3/4 or more Angus breeding, well over half of them are red-gene carriers, courtesy of red Simmental bulls we used back in the 1980s and again in the early 2000s.

One possible explanation for the combination of red and black on the calf is...chimerism.
The calf could actually be a chimera... a mixed-up combination of two distinct embryos which fused to form one fetus... one of which carried the red coat color gene, the other the black coat color gene, and the red patches are the result of small 'islands' of skin tissue originating from the 'red' embryo, while the majority of the calf's skin originated from the 'black' embryo.

I've seen 'intentional' chimeras formed by forcing the fusion of different breed embryos, producing a calf with an almost 'calico' type of red, white and black coat coloration.
There has been at least one Angus bull (I don't recall which one) who was determined to have been a chimera... his sperm didn't genotype to match his blood type... it turns out that his testicular germ line cells originated from a 'missing twin'... while his bone marrow - and, I presume, the majority of his body cells, as well - were genotypically different from his testicles.

Re: Black Baldy?

Posted: Fri Sep 08, 2017 9:12 pm
by RedFernFarm
Katpau wrote:The original Angus were both reds and blacks and some also had some white. When the cattle were imported to the US and the Angus registry was formed, the decision was made to only allow black and solid. The Red Angus registry (RA) was originally formed because some wanted to preserve the red gene. Red is a recessive, so they never carry the black gene, however the black gene can hide the recessive red gene through many generations, so there are still a few Black Angus cattle that carry the red gene. It is possible now to do a genetic test to identify a red carrier, but unless a red calf is born, most do not test.

The markings on your calf are common, but the red spots within the black is something I have never seen. You can't really see it in the little photo that shows up on this thread, but if you click on it, it becomes apparent. I hope she retains these as she gets older because to me they are really neat. Sometimes black calves are born with a coat that looks red but they shed out black, so I hope that is not the case with her. I would like to see a full body shot of her. Does she have more of those red spots on her black body. What is the registration number of the Angus bull?


Her body is mostly black. It does seem to have a reddish undertone- No definitive red spots anywhere else. She also has a little white on her chest/ belly. I don't have the registration numbers handy. They are in our office. I'll get them when I get a chance though. Her mother, Fern, is a very dark red Hereford. Much darker than the 6 other Herefords we have. Fern was our first Hereford and not bought from the same farm as the others.

Re: Black Baldy?

Posted: Sat Sep 09, 2017 9:49 am
by RedFernFarm
This is a better picture of her and a couple of her mother.
Image




Image

Image

Re: Black Baldy?

Posted: Sat Sep 09, 2017 11:19 am
by Muddy
Very unique markings.

Re: Black Baldy?

Posted: Sat Sep 09, 2017 11:49 am
by elkwc
IMHO there is more to this story. Something in the background likely. May be way back

Re: Black Baldy?

Posted: Sat Sep 09, 2017 7:27 pm
by RedFernFarm
elkwc wrote:IMHO there is more to this story. Something in the background likely. May be way back


What are the possibilities of something in the background? What different scenarios would explain these colors? I would just like to know how, genetically speaking, these colors would appear.

Re: Black Baldy?

Posted: Sat Sep 09, 2017 8:47 pm
by Jeanne - Simme Valley
I have many heterozygous black calves that "appear" to have reddish tinge to them, but they grow out of it. This appears to be more of a "birth mark". I would guess it will stay reddish.

Re: Black Baldy?

Posted: Sun Sep 10, 2017 7:09 am
by Dogs and Cows
I had one born 2 months ago exactly like that...Hereford cow, Angus sire. I was surprised as well...but the calf is growing well and that's all that I can ask for. I have found that with my sire all the calves are born with a brown/red tint and darken as they age. But I am not sure this calf will be the same.

Tim

Re: Black Baldy?

Posted: Sun Sep 10, 2017 7:59 am
by Lucky_P
Jeanne's 'birthmark' point may be the most appropriate - though, from a pure genetics standpoint I don't know how to explain it - unless chimerism is at play.
We had a red Shorthorn-sired bull born a couple of years back, out of a black(red-carrier) Angus-cross cow... he had a palm-of-your-hand size black-haired 'birthmark' on one shoulder. Never really gave it much thought until now.

Re: Black Baldy?

Posted: Sun Sep 10, 2017 9:07 am
by elkwc
I looked at the dam's pedigree. Her sire was raised by a member of this board. He raises very good linebred polled Herefords. She has a good pedigree. Based on the dam's side this heifer should make a nice cow.