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Angus bulls sold without registration papers

Posted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 7:52 pm
by SimAngus farmer
I was looking through an old DVF catalog and noticed some bulls being sold without registration papers. However, if you type their number into the AAA database a full pedigree and set of epds are there just like any other registered angus bull.

It looks to be due to an excessive amount of white on the animal .

My question is, would the bull still be eligible to be included in a certified crossbreeding program that requires the sires be registered? Such as the American Simmental Association THE (total herd enrollment) program.

Re: Angus bulls sold without registration papers

Posted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 8:33 pm
by Till-Hill
I assume not as you need a registration number for that? But good question!

Re: Angus bulls sold without registration papers

Posted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 9:23 pm
by cattleman99
Simple answer is no.

Re: Angus bulls sold without registration papers

Posted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 9:40 pm
by Supa Dexta
Contact the Sim association on the specifics - they are usually pretty helpful.

That sounds like they were registered animals, but were being sold without their papers to prevent them from being used as purebred breeding bulls. Usually due to a defect or something that affects its purebred use, but the bull was likely fine for a commercial herd

Re: Angus bulls sold without registration papers

Posted: Wed Sep 13, 2017 8:10 am
by ALACOWMAN
SimAngus farmer wrote:I was looking through an old DVF catalog and noticed some bulls being sold without registration papers. However, if you type their number into the AAA database a full pedigree and set of epds are there just like any other registered angus bull.

It looks to be due to an excessive amount of white on the animal .

My question is, would the bull still be eligible to be included in a certified crossbreeding program that requires the sires be registered? Such as the American Simmental Association THE (total herd enrollment) program.

You'd think they would be cut, before they made it that far.....I would use one, if they came from a good cow family... I'm commercial anyway ...

Re: Angus bulls sold without registration papers

Posted: Wed Sep 13, 2017 8:19 am
by Son of Butch
Till-Hill wrote:I assume not as you need a registration number for that?
But good question!

They have a registration number... the papers of the bull just weren't transferred to the bull buyer.
I assume the answer is YES. But check with the breed associations in question to be certain.

Re: Angus bulls sold without registration papers

Posted: Wed Sep 13, 2017 8:24 am
by Till-Hill
Son of Butch wrote:
Till-Hill wrote:I assume not as you need a registration number for that?
But good question!

They have a registration number... the papers of the bull just weren't transferred to the bull buyer.
I assume the answer is YES. But check with the breed associations in question to be certain.

I'd assume ASA would know of the deal when a person went to register the bull as the owner needs to ok the registering of the foundation papers. If DVF said they were selling it unregistered that's the way they wanted it with all breeds I'm assuming again.

On another note I never liked when they do that at sales give you all the EPD's, pedigree and what not and say this one sells without papers.........makes guy wonder........

Re: Angus bulls sold without registration papers

Posted: Wed Sep 13, 2017 8:54 am
by Son of Butch
I assume there will be added fees (which may make it prohibitive) but I'm thinking somehow it could be done.

Re: Angus bulls sold without registration papers

Posted: Wed Sep 13, 2017 10:18 am
by cattleman99
Can't say for sure how they do it in the US but the bull has to be DNA'd in Canada for the other breeds pedigree to show on the papers (Simmental) There is additional cost to add that bull to the database. Can't see how that could be done without the transfer of papers. There are also bulls available all over the country with papers so why bother. Some of those bulls sell without papers because the pedigree is questionable as well no matter what the comments might say. many commercial breeders are not as concerned with this so the bulls sell.

Re: Angus bulls sold without registration papers

Posted: Wed Sep 13, 2017 11:19 am
by VirginiaCattle
There were a lot of bulls that sold in the past few years as commercial due to too much white. Prophet sired cattle seemed to be the most common.

I heard some want to relax the association rules on white markings some. Not sure if that will gain traction or not.

Re: Angus bulls sold without registration papers

Posted: Wed Sep 13, 2017 12:09 pm
by SimAngus farmer
I put a call and e-mail in to the ASA this morning, so hopefully I'll get to speak with someone soon. The two bulls I saw that had the notation of being sold "without papers due to excessive white" had outstanding epds and $values. I was looking at the possibility of the ASA still recognizing the bull as a foundation animal and possibly getting above average genetics at a discount. Might not work or be profitable, just always looking for a way to get the most bang for my buck.

Re: Angus bulls sold without registration papers

Posted: Wed Sep 13, 2017 12:35 pm
by True Grit Farms
Most big Angus sales will have a AAA representative at the sale looking the cattle over for to much white. The AAA needs to focus more on structure than white IMO. A couple of really nice Angus cows got pulled at the Southeast Angus Classic sale because of to much white, and were sold without papers.

Re: Angus bulls sold without registration papers

Posted: Wed Sep 13, 2017 1:05 pm
by Ky hills
True Grit Farms wrote:Most big Angus sales will have a AAA representative at the sale looking the cattle over for to much white. The AAA needs to focus more on structure than white IMO. A couple of really nice Angus cows got pulled at the Southeast Angus Classic sale because of to much white, and were sold without papers.


I have seen them do that a few times at sales around here too, in one case I thought one was the best heifer calf in the sale.

Re: Angus bulls sold without registration papers

Posted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 9:13 am
by SimAngus farmer
An ASA rep. called me back yesterday evening. There are two possible ways for a bull from the above scenario to be entered in to the ASA database. One option would enter the bull in to the database to be used in developing epds for progeny in a commercial setting under THE. The other option would have a few more moving parts but would end with the bull being "registered" in the database. It would not be tied in to the AAA registry, only the ASA, and could result in registered offspring, if mated to a registered simmental cow, through the ASA. The lady I spoke to was very helpful and knowledgeable. I'm sure I didn't do her explanation proper justice, but those are the main points as I remeber them.
Just thought I would pass it along if anyone else were to be interested.

Re: Angus bulls sold without registration papers

Posted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 4:16 pm
by Jeanne - Simme Valley
I believe any bull of any breed (registered or not) can produce a 50% calf if bred to a purebred cow. If the bull is registered, that would enhance the EPD's, but you would have to pay ASA (I believe) $25 to "register" the bull into our data system.