Prepotency in a Picture

Discuss the advantages and disadvantages of your favorite breed.

artesianspringsfarm
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Prepotency in a Picture

Postby artesianspringsfarm » Tue Sep 26, 2017 9:38 pm

I've said it on here for at least four years that I am shooting for maternal cattle. The biggest factor I think you can have when you're trying to establish a type of cow would be a confidence in the genetics you are using to accomplish that goal. I guess thats kind of a non-scientific way of describing prepotency but maybe a better way is to show a picture of it. Here is Leonid of Wye, born in 1981 and an amazing sire of predictably maternal cattle. Below is Barrage of Wye, born 2016. I think I know what I'm going to get but I'll be the first to admit in 3-4 years if I'm wrong. Please don't take this as pimping anything. To each their own. I just think this is a cool shot and affirming to me in my goals.


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Re: Prepotency in a Picture

Postby True Grit Farms » Tue Sep 26, 2017 9:47 pm

I think that's the way line breeding is supposed to work out. Its hard to believe how similar those two bulls are for being 35+ years between them.
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Re: Prepotency in a Picture

Postby artesianspringsfarm » Tue Sep 26, 2017 10:06 pm

True Grit Farms wrote:I think that's the way line breeding is supposed to work out. Its hard to believe how similar those two bulls are for being 35+ years between them.


Vince, His sire also shows up on his maternal side 4 generations back. These three sires also all show up top and bottom on his pedigree, Prince of Malpas, Conan of Wye, and Columbus of Wye. His maternal grandsire is Prince of Malpas, born 1957. Here is Prince, Conan, and Columbus in that order.


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Re: Prepotency in a Picture

Postby ohiosteve » Tue Sep 26, 2017 10:19 pm

I'm not very smart, but I feel like you are on the right track. Anyone who understands prepotency is likely to be sucessfull in the cattle industry.
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Re: Prepotency in a Picture

Postby Backbone Ranch » Wed Sep 27, 2017 9:52 am

Wow! I cannot believe how similar the Leonid of Wye and Barrage of Wye bulls are. Your bull is descended from some very impressive individuals.
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Re: Prepotency in a Picture

Postby pdfangus » Wed Sep 27, 2017 10:33 am

this consistency is why I have gone back to breeding everything to wye bulls.....

This year breeding to Claymont of Wye...top selling yearling bull in the Spring sale.

except the one cow I am going to breed with sexed semen....

I have told Eddie Draper that if they come up with some heifer semen that I want some....
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Re: Prepotency in a Picture

Postby BFE » Thu Sep 28, 2017 9:59 pm

Not trying to highjack, but I started a thread some time ago (as Clodhopper) about breeding linebred Herefords to linebred Angus in the hopes of creating some cows with an extra high level of heterosis. I have located and purchased some well bred Line One Herefords. I plan on building my numbers up with them, using their heifer calves to replace my various other cows when time to cull. The Wye Angus seems to be the line of Angus of choice. What do you all think? Would (or maybe should is the better term) the consistency of the two lines make a superior F1 cow, with extreme heterosis and the ability to pass this on to her offspring in the same way as her predecessors did, or do you think it would be a waste of good linebred genetics to cross them up?
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Re: Prepotency in a Picture

Postby Nesikep » Thu Sep 28, 2017 10:20 pm

First off, Those are some nice bulls, and the apple certainly doesn't fall far from the tree!

BFE, While you'll have very predictable cows with what should be really good heterosis, I don't think this would pass on to the daughters very well.. Their predictability will still be better than coming from non-linebred parents of course, but it isn't going to be anything close to the predictability (or heterosis) of the F1's. It sounds interesting for sure and look forward to hearing more on how it works out!

Taking the horned gene for example since it's easy, if you mate a homo-polled bull to a horned cow, you're guaranteed to have a polled calf.. Now you have a few of these calves and mate them, the calves will be:
homo polled (25%)
hetero-polled (50%)
horned (25%)
Add in coat color which works the same way
Reds = 25%
Red carrier blacks = 50%
Homo black = 25%

Lets say you want a homo black, homo polled calf, there's only a .25x.25 = 1 in 16 chance of that happening.. and we're only dealing with 2 genes here!

Nevertheless, I'd go with something linebred every time when I'm looking to build maternal traits, assuming they've been selected and culled using the same rules I would use.
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Re: Prepotency in a Picture

Postby elkwc » Thu Sep 28, 2017 10:28 pm

BFE it should produce some very nice F1 baldies. Similar to what I'm doing.
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Re: Prepotency in a Picture

Postby Jeanne - Simme Valley » Fri Sep 29, 2017 4:40 am

When you are "making babies", the better the sire and the better the dam is, gives you better odds of having a great calf. As mentioned, there are a lot of genes going into it, but the fewer bad traits going back several generations, the better your odds, i do not think heterosis will be any greater than normally crossing two british breeds.
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Re: Prepotency in a Picture

Postby BFE » Fri Sep 29, 2017 5:50 am

Jeanne - Simme Valley wrote:When you are "making babies", the better the sire and the better the dam is, gives you better odds of having a great calf. As mentioned, there are a lot of genes going into it, but the fewer bad traits going back several generations, the better your odds, i do not think heterosis will be any greater than normally crossing two british breeds.

Thank you all. One of the claims of line bred cattle is that when you take a line bred and put it on a normal outcross of the same breed, the offspring will perform similar to a crossbred. I didn't know if that would increase using the two linebred breeds together, thank you Jeanne.
Back on the original post, Everyone is looking for a bull that will consistently put their stamp on the calves, and it's apparent the Wye bulls should do that as well or better than any. I like the direction you're going, artesiansprings.
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Re: Prepotency in a Picture

Postby Stocker Steve » Fri Sep 29, 2017 7:48 am

Line bred or not - - I think every herd has some cows that consistently throw special calves. What ever your special thing is. The latest and greatest DNA testing could refine this short list of foundational cows even more.

Obviously you will not get a lot of heifers out of those special cows unless you flush them. What would you estimate as the average additional cost of a ET calf on the ground? What kind of success have yo had when flushing with sexed semen?
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Re: Prepotency in a Picture

Postby Son of Butch » Fri Sep 29, 2017 1:30 pm

Stocker Steve wrote:Line bred or not - - I think every herd has some cows that consistently throw special calves.
What ever your special thing is.
The latest and greatest DNA testing could refine this short list....

Yes, in the early '60s we started changing over from a Jersey herd to Holsteins by buying 5 commercial bred heifers.
The first to calve "Blackie" had a big black heifer calf with a strong wide back "Blackie Jr" and the best cow in our herd generation after generation always traced back to Blackie Jr and close second would occasionally be to Blackie through
one of Blackie Jr's sisters. Of course we bought other holstein cows and heifers too.

It didn't seem to matter which bull we A.I. them to, even the great great granddaughters of Blackie Jr were always our best.
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Re: Prepotency in a Picture

Postby Jeanne - Simme Valley » Mon Oct 02, 2017 7:19 am

Unless things have changed recently, they do not recommend using sexed semen for flushes. You can IVF and have the embryos sexed.
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Re: Prepotency in a Picture

Postby artesianspringsfarm » Mon Oct 02, 2017 7:54 am

Stocker Steve wrote:Line bred or not - - I think every herd has some cows that consistently throw special calves. What ever your special thing is. The latest and greatest DNA testing could refine this short list of foundational cows even more.

Obviously you will not get a lot of heifers out of those special cows unless you flush them. What would you estimate as the average additional cost of a ET calf on the ground? What kind of success have yo had when flushing with sexed semen?



Steve, I may flush a cow or two to this bull but I've never flushed one before. Instead, I've tried to use prepotent bulls on all my cows and kept the ones that fit the type best. Keep in mind, I've only been at this project for five years so I would say I'm not even 100% sure I'm making progress, but based on the young cows in my herd, how they look and perform, I think I am. Undoubtedly, the strongest influence in the herd as I keep going will be from the initial 4-5 cows that most match what I'm looking for, whether that be from retained daughters or sons. That being said, I'm not buying that DNA testing can help me find the right mix of traits for a superbly maternal cow that has calves that can finish out on grass since no one is even interested in testing for those things.
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