Terminal or Maternal

Discuss the advantages and disadvantages of your favorite breed.

User avatar
Bestoutwest
GURU
GURU
Posts: 1559
Joined: Fri Sep 28, 2012 2:12 pm
Location: Idaho

Re: Terminal or Maternal

Postby Bestoutwest » Tue Nov 21, 2017 2:14 pm

Wouldn't a good place to start this project is to have all the cows a similar breed/type so that there is some consistency for choosing a bull? That is the goal I'm working toward is to have all Angus cattle that are similar so that the bull becomes the only variable and not him plus the cows. Is this good, solid thinking?
1 x
How many a man has dated a new era in his life from the reading of a book. ~Henry David Thoreau

HeII is other people. ~Sartre

rain dance
Cowhand
Cowhand
Posts: 32
Joined: Thu Aug 25, 2016 1:43 pm

Re: Terminal or Maternal

Postby rain dance » Tue Nov 21, 2017 7:45 pm

Yes it would be but I had the opportunity to buy a intact young herd that i really liked for a good price as opposed to buying other peoples throw away cows. Purebred herds are really hard to find here.
0 x

elkwc
Rancher
Rancher
Posts: 654
Joined: Mon Apr 28, 2014 10:21 pm

Re: Terminal or Maternal

Postby elkwc » Tue Nov 21, 2017 11:42 pm

[
Why do they not want simmental? I would never want to keep heifers out of a sim but they really seem to grow well.[/quote]

The simple answer is profit. Feeders are just like the cow/calf breeder. They want to make money. I have a BIL who fed cattle for over 35 years along with owning an interest in a sale barn for around ten and running stockers his whole life until he recently rented everything out and retired. Like him and others have told me they bought and fed what made the most money. They would buy cattle that didn't feed and grade as well if they could buy them cheap enough too offset the increased cost of feeding them and to cover those that didn't grade as well. I have a close friend who has managed a very large lot(around 60,000) head for many years. He has told me what they prefer and what feeds and grades the best. These men along with others I know have first hand experience. They have invested their own money and fed thousands of head. Many that make comments about how well a certain breed or bloodline gorw or feed have never fed one pen of cattle out let alone several every year. I agree to the novice it is hard to tell in the brief time cattle are in the ring if they are basically Angus or a cross that is black or a black simmie or limmie. To the feeder buyer who looks at many cattle everyday they can tell at first glimpse. Their job depends on it. The lots they buy for keep track of what buyer bought what and where they came from. Like a recent post on here that talked about a breeder who got by selling black calves with Holstein in them for a few years and then the prices dropped. Anything that don't feed well the buyer will be told about. I don't have anything against Black Simmentals or Simmentals. I just know how they get docked here and for that reason haven't bought a bull. Tried to buy some females to experiment with a little but the local Black Simmental breeder wouldn't sell any. He wanted me to buy a bull instead. If they sell well in your area I would say go for it. I only asked the question as I know they don't sell as well around here. We have a neighbor who used a Black white faced Simmie for a few years. His calves last year were docked heavy. I understand he is going to feed out at least some of the calves this year and sell the beef. They are good quality calves but they don't weigh anymore than our straight Angus at weaning. Like I've stated before here the top selling animal is the Hereford/Angus baldie. I know it varies by region but they have been the king for years.
0 x

User avatar
Jeanne - Simme Valley
GURU
GURU
Posts: 7669
Joined: Thu Dec 09, 2004 6:46 am
Location: Central Upstate New York
Contact:

Re: Terminal or Maternal

Postby Jeanne - Simme Valley » Wed Nov 22, 2017 10:52 am

elkwc - where are you located?
0 x
Simme Valley of New York - http://www.SimmeValley.com
"We make a living by what we get,
we make a life by what we give."

Stocker Steve
GURU
GURU
Posts: 7286
Joined: Mon May 02, 2005 8:28 am
Location: Central Minnesota

Re: Terminal or Maternal

Postby Stocker Steve » Wed Nov 22, 2017 11:41 am

Son of Butch wrote:I think flexibility as to where we are in the cattle cycle would probably be the most profitable strategy. Right now buying bred replacements and breeding everything terminal would seem to be the way to go.
I expect that to change in a couple of years and at that time Lazy M's advice would probably work best.


Yes.

Every year is different. There are 3 to 4 years in a cattle price cycle where retaining COMMERCIAL heifers makes financial sense. PM me if you have identified those years. :?

As others have said - - buy terminal bulls and you can still dabble with planned AI matings. I have used AI on heifers for a while now and have some fancy 75% AI calves. Wish I had more.

I butcher about three head every year so that makes me a feedlot expert. ;-) I think simi cross calves are growthy, but may not grade as well as some other breeds. Your thoughts?
0 x
Stocker Steve

User avatar
Jeanne - Simme Valley
GURU
GURU
Posts: 7669
Joined: Thu Dec 09, 2004 6:46 am
Location: Central Upstate New York
Contact:

Re: Terminal or Maternal

Postby Jeanne - Simme Valley » Wed Nov 22, 2017 12:05 pm

I am not arguing, just find that hard to believe, from my own experience and research shows Simmental is the best marbling continental - with Angus being the best British.
Bestoutwest said it would be best to have "all the cows a similar breed/type so that there is some consistency ". This may very well be true, but isn't something you can do overnight. Unless money isn't a factor.
0 x
Simme Valley of New York - http://www.SimmeValley.com
"We make a living by what we get,
we make a life by what we give."

Stocker Steve
GURU
GURU
Posts: 7286
Joined: Mon May 02, 2005 8:28 am
Location: Central Minnesota

Re: Terminal or Maternal

Postby Stocker Steve » Wed Nov 22, 2017 12:54 pm

Jeanne - Simme Valley wrote:I am not arguing, just find that hard to believe, from my own experience and research shows Simmental is the best marbling continental - with Angus being the best British.


Yes. The biggest BA seed stock operation in our area started offering half blood bulls for that reason. They also buy back calves and like feeding quarter bloods. They use Simi power bulls like Genex' Tanker on high capacity BA cows.

I asked about keeping back quarter blood sim angus replacements from these breedings. They said fine - - as long as you sort off the biggest end for "too much power". I am getting to that point. I have a couple that no longer fit in my chute coming off fall pasture. :nod:
0 x
Stocker Steve

User avatar
Jeanne - Simme Valley
GURU
GURU
Posts: 7669
Joined: Thu Dec 09, 2004 6:46 am
Location: Central Upstate New York
Contact:

Re: Terminal or Maternal

Postby Jeanne - Simme Valley » Wed Nov 22, 2017 1:24 pm

LOL - I have cows that can go IN the chute, but you best be opening the side to get them OUT. And they are only 5 - 6.5 type frame size cows. Just a little WIDE
0 x
Simme Valley of New York - http://www.SimmeValley.com
"We make a living by what we get,
we make a life by what we give."

Stocker Steve
GURU
GURU
Posts: 7286
Joined: Mon May 02, 2005 8:28 am
Location: Central Minnesota

Re: Terminal or Maternal

Postby Stocker Steve » Wed Nov 22, 2017 3:20 pm

Mine is a home made wood chute, and I have not had to use the chain saw yet...

One cow did have to take a break, and pass some organic matter, before she dog paddled her way out.
1 x
Stocker Steve

elkwc
Rancher
Rancher
Posts: 654
Joined: Mon Apr 28, 2014 10:21 pm

Re: Terminal or Maternal

Postby elkwc » Wed Nov 22, 2017 3:33 pm

Stocker Steve wrote:
Jeanne - Simme Valley wrote:I am not arguing, just find that hard to believe, from my own experience and research shows Simmental is the best marbling continental - with Angus being the best British.


Yes. The biggest BA seed stock operation in our area started offering half blood bulls for that reason. They also buy back calves and like feeding quarter bloods. They use Simi power bulls like Genex' Tanker on high capacity BA cows.

I asked about keeping back quarter blood sim angus replacements from these breedings. They said fine - - as long as you sort off the biggest end for "too much power". I am getting to that point. I have a couple that no longer fit in my chute coming off fall pasture. :nod:


We have that issue with some of our cows and bulls. Some aren't that tall but deep and soggy. The mfg of the hydraulic chute had to come out and make modifications on the one we use. They still fit so tight I don't run them through the chute unless i have too. I try to do everything in the adjustable alley and let them out the gate at the front. The mfg couldn't believe the issues we have. He said it was only the 2nd time that he had a customer with this issue.
0 x

elkwc
Rancher
Rancher
Posts: 654
Joined: Mon Apr 28, 2014 10:21 pm

Re: Terminal or Maternal

Postby elkwc » Wed Nov 22, 2017 3:37 pm

Jeanne - Simme Valley wrote:elkwc - where are you located?
I live in extreme SW KS and also help with and run cattle in west central OK. I was raised on ranches in NE NM, the Texas Panhandle and then SW KS. Have had been around lots in this area and the TX Panhandle. So know people involved from a wide area with differing experience and views. Many call this area the heart of the feedlot country. We are close to the center of many big lots.
0 x

elkwc
Rancher
Rancher
Posts: 654
Joined: Mon Apr 28, 2014 10:21 pm

Re: Terminal or Maternal

Postby elkwc » Wed Nov 22, 2017 3:46 pm

Jeanne - Simme Valley wrote:I am not arguing, just find that hard to believe, from my own experience and research shows Simmental is the best marbling continental - with Angus being the best British.
Bestoutwest said it would be best to have "all the cows a similar breed/type so that there is some consistency ". This may very well be true, but isn't something you can do overnight. Unless money isn't a factor.


Jeanne I won't argue about whether they are the best marbling continental or not. That is just one of the reasons that I've been told for limiting the continental influence including Simmie. Another one is cost of gain. As more than one feeder have told me ADG is just part of the equation. If high ADG comes with a high input then many times it isn't as effecient as one with a lower ADG but better feed efficiency. Like you not trying to start an argument but what I've been told by those who feed cattle and what I've seen. That is why when I see big yearling weights, ect I want to know what it cost to attain those weights. The calf I kept for a bull last year weighed 1000 lbs when weaned at 8 months off his mother and was never creep fed. He comes from a program that breeds for growth, efficiency and also grade and yield on the rail. Like I said I've seen pics of the Black Simmies that I like and would of tried a few if I could of bought them. But not going the bull route because of what I've seen neighbors experience.
Last edited by elkwc on Wed Nov 22, 2017 10:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
1 x

User avatar
Silver
Cowhand
Cowhand
Posts: 89
Joined: Tue May 19, 2009 12:08 am
Location: BC

Re: Terminal or Maternal

Postby Silver » Wed Nov 22, 2017 5:11 pm

Around here some feeders have told me they shy away from straight Angus, one reason being that when an Angus is finished they are finished. You can't hold them an extra week or two because every dollar put into them is dollars straight out the window. They tell me exotics you can keep feeding and still get a return on the investment while waiting for markets to improve. Another thing they tell me about exotics is that they may take more feed to finish but the return from a better cutting carcass more than off sets the difference.
We run a herd of mongrels, but try to keep the Angus (red in our case) influence from getting too strong.
0 x

elkwc
Rancher
Rancher
Posts: 654
Joined: Mon Apr 28, 2014 10:21 pm

Re: Terminal or Maternal

Postby elkwc » Wed Nov 22, 2017 5:32 pm

Silver wrote:Around here some feeders have told me they shy away from straight Angus, one reason being that when an Angus is finished they are finished. You can't hold them an extra week or two because every dollar put into them is dollars straight out the window. They tell me exotics you can keep feeding and still get a return on the investment while waiting for markets to improve. Another thing they tell me about exotics is that they may take more feed to finish but the return from a better cutting carcass more than off sets the difference.
We run a herd of mongrels, but try to keep the Angus (red in our case) influence from getting too strong.

Silver where are you located. What you have been told is very different from what I'm told.Just curious. It seems things vary a lot from one area to another.
0 x

User avatar
Silver
Cowhand
Cowhand
Posts: 89
Joined: Tue May 19, 2009 12:08 am
Location: BC

Re: Terminal or Maternal

Postby Silver » Wed Nov 22, 2017 5:47 pm

elkwc wrote:Silver where are you located. What you have been told is very different from what I'm told.Just curious. It seems things vary a lot from one area to another.


I agree, from reading on this forum it's surprising how things vary from area to area. I'm in Northern BC, about as far North as cattle are raised, at least in any significant numbers.
0 x


Return to “Breeds Board”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: msplmtneer and 16 guests