Help me understand

Discuss the advantages and disadvantages of your favorite breed.

User avatar
ALACOWMAN
Mentor
Mentor
Posts: 14300
Joined: Fri Jul 08, 2005 4:16 pm
Location: heart of dixie

Re: Help me understand

Postby ALACOWMAN » Mon Dec 04, 2017 6:17 pm

Muddy wrote:
Bullitt wrote:
True Grit Farms wrote:Hereford.....some have horns, some are polled, but none are black.


People have started making new breeds of everything black since, for some reason, black cattle seem to sell for higher prices. It makes no sense to me. You would think the cattle would be judged on conformation and not hair color.
This is the reason why some people are starting to stay away from the black hide fad. Very few breeds in North America that isn't black or Angus influenced. Feedlot buyers will pay more for dink black calves of unknown background than good quality colored calves.
if that's the case,, give me all the black dinks.. Money is one of the reasons I raise em..
0 x
Santa Claus, the ultimate Yankee....

User avatar
Bullitt
Trail Boss
Trail Boss
Posts: 225
Joined: Sat Dec 02, 2017 1:31 am
Location: Texas

Re: Help me understand

Postby Bullitt » Mon Dec 04, 2017 8:03 pm

cowgirl8 wrote:Angus and Herefords marble better, and its that marble that makes them taste good. Its very simple to understand....


Do Herefords marble as well or about as well as Angus?
0 x

User avatar
True Grit Farms
GURU
GURU
Posts: 5027
Joined: Mon Jan 04, 2016 5:29 pm
Location: Middle Georgia

Re: Help me understand

Postby True Grit Farms » Mon Dec 04, 2017 8:06 pm

No not even close, Herefords lack marble, I'm not sure where she came up with that.
1 x
If we'd of know this we'd of picked our own cotton.

User avatar
ALACOWMAN
Mentor
Mentor
Posts: 14300
Joined: Fri Jul 08, 2005 4:16 pm
Location: heart of dixie

Re: Help me understand

Postby ALACOWMAN » Mon Dec 04, 2017 8:20 pm

Bullitt wrote:
cowgirl8 wrote:I think cattle will all merge into one breed eventually, ones that taste good, grow good and ones who have few health problems..... that's what i'm shooting for


That would be a very boring cattle world if there was only one breed of beef cattle.

Not if you put all your effort into raising a quality beef animal ... And concentrate on that..
0 x
Santa Claus, the ultimate Yankee....

User avatar
Bullitt
Trail Boss
Trail Boss
Posts: 225
Joined: Sat Dec 02, 2017 1:31 am
Location: Texas

Re: Help me understand

Postby Bullitt » Mon Dec 04, 2017 8:27 pm

ALACOWMAN wrote:Not if you put all your effort into raising a quality beef animal ... And concentrate on that..


Let's say the world now only has one breed of beef cattle. We'll call it Beef Cattle 1.

You would be happy living in a world with only Beef Cattle 1 and no other beef breed? Everywhere you go you see all the same breed of beef cattle and no one has anything else.
0 x

Muddy
GURU
GURU
Posts: 2193
Joined: Mon Feb 09, 2015 3:08 pm
Location: Cold place!!!

Re: Help me understand

Postby Muddy » Mon Dec 04, 2017 8:38 pm

Bullitt wrote:
cowgirl8 wrote:Angus and Herefords marble better, and its that marble that makes them taste good. Its very simple to understand....


Do Herefords marble as well or about as well as Angus?

Maybe some Hereford, but not all. Beef shorthorns, solid Galloways, British whites, Buelingos, Brahmans and the black Continental breeds marbled really good in the feedlot conditions. I talked to a guy who feeding his brahman influenced steers out and take them up to 1,500lbs to be slaughtered. He said they marbled really good, especially Hereford x Brahman steers and shorthorn x Brahman steers and have better gain rate than Brahman x Angus.
0 x

Muddy
GURU
GURU
Posts: 2193
Joined: Mon Feb 09, 2015 3:08 pm
Location: Cold place!!!

Re: Help me understand

Postby Muddy » Mon Dec 04, 2017 8:39 pm

Bullitt wrote:
ALACOWMAN wrote:Not if you put all your effort into raising a quality beef animal ... And concentrate on that..


Let's say the world now only has one breed of beef cattle. We'll call it Beef Cattle 1.

You would be happy living in a world with only Beef Cattle 1 and no other beef breed? Everywhere you go you see all the same breed of beef cattle and no one has anything else.

It's called Black Angus :cowboy:
0 x

User avatar
ALACOWMAN
Mentor
Mentor
Posts: 14300
Joined: Fri Jul 08, 2005 4:16 pm
Location: heart of dixie

Re: Help me understand

Postby ALACOWMAN » Mon Dec 04, 2017 8:47 pm

Bullitt wrote:
ALACOWMAN wrote:Not if you put all your effort into raising a quality beef animal ... And concentrate on that..


Let's say the world now only has one breed of beef cattle. We'll call it Beef Cattle 1.

You would be happy living in a world with only Beef Cattle 1 and no other beef breed? Everywhere you go you see all the same breed of beef cattle and no one has anything else.
I've learned to be happy in a lot of situations....if there was only one breed, I would try and raise the best example of it as possible...and not cry about it .and try to reinvent the wheel...
0 x
Santa Claus, the ultimate Yankee....

User avatar
ALACOWMAN
Mentor
Mentor
Posts: 14300
Joined: Fri Jul 08, 2005 4:16 pm
Location: heart of dixie

Re: Help me understand

Postby ALACOWMAN » Mon Dec 04, 2017 8:56 pm

Muddy wrote:
Bullitt wrote:
ALACOWMAN wrote:Not if you put all your effort into raising a quality beef animal ... And concentrate on that..


Let's say the world now only has one breed of beef cattle. We'll call it Beef Cattle 1.

You would be happy living in a world with only Beef Cattle 1 and no other beef breed? Everywhere you go you see all the same breed of beef cattle and no one has anything else.

It's called Black Angus :cowboy:
no it's called the cattle business...
0 x
Santa Claus, the ultimate Yankee....

User avatar
Bullitt
Trail Boss
Trail Boss
Posts: 225
Joined: Sat Dec 02, 2017 1:31 am
Location: Texas

Re: Help me understand

Postby Bullitt » Mon Dec 04, 2017 11:11 pm

ALACOWMAN wrote:I've learned to be happy in a lot of situations....if there was only one breed, I would try and raise the best example of it as possible...and not cry about it .and try to reinvent the wheel...


I thought we were discussing various ways to raise profitable cattle. Discussing using different breeds and crosses is not reinventing the wheel, it is just looking at the possibilities.

It is wonderful that you are happy with your cattle. But why shoot down other ways of doing it by other people?
0 x

User avatar
ALACOWMAN
Mentor
Mentor
Posts: 14300
Joined: Fri Jul 08, 2005 4:16 pm
Location: heart of dixie

Re: Help me understand

Postby ALACOWMAN » Tue Dec 05, 2017 12:41 am

Bullitt wrote:
ALACOWMAN wrote:I've learned to be happy in a lot of situations....if there was only one breed, I would try and raise the best example of it as possible...and not cry about it .and try to reinvent the wheel...


I thought we were discussing various ways to raise profitable cattle. Discussing using different breeds and crosses is not reinventing the wheel, it is just looking at the possibilities.

It is wonderful that you are happy with your cattle. But why shoot down other ways of doing it by other people?
just because I view it from a different angle doesn't make me a bad guy...what I'm saying is ,raise the best of """whatever"" breed you want..you ask questions but have selective hearing. some answers will be what you don't want to hear...
2 x
Santa Claus, the ultimate Yankee....

User avatar
Bullitt
Trail Boss
Trail Boss
Posts: 225
Joined: Sat Dec 02, 2017 1:31 am
Location: Texas

Re: Help me understand

Postby Bullitt » Tue Dec 05, 2017 2:34 am

ALACOWMAN wrote:
It is wonderful that you are happy with your cattle. But why shoot down other ways of doing it by other people?
just because I view it from a different angle doesn't make me a bad guy...what I'm saying is ,raise the best of """whatever"" breed you want..you ask questions but have selective hearing. some answers will be what you don't want to hear...[/quote]

I did not see you say before for people to use whatever breed they want. I do not feel I was selective. Now you are saying that. I agree that people should raise whatever breed they want.
0 x

elkwc
Rancher
Rancher
Posts: 707
Joined: Mon Apr 28, 2014 10:21 pm

Re: Help me understand

Postby elkwc » Tue Dec 05, 2017 6:53 am

ALACOWMAN wrote:
Bullitt wrote:
ALACOWMAN wrote:I've learned to be happy in a lot of situations....if there was only one breed, I would try and raise the best example of it as possible...and not cry about it .and try to reinvent the wheel...


I thought we were discussing various ways to raise profitable cattle. Discussing using different breeds and crosses is not reinventing the wheel, it is just looking at the possibilities.

It is wonderful that you are happy with your cattle. But why shoot down other ways of doing it by other people?
just because I view it from a different angle doesn't make me a bad guy...what I'm saying is ,raise the best of """whatever"" breed you want..you ask questions but have selective hearing. some answers will be what you don't want to hear...


I agree with you. Each of us as breeders have a different situation and many of us have totally different environments. Each of us have had different experiences with different breeds. What sells and performs well in one area doesn't in another. I try not to trash breeds. I see cattle I like in breeds I will likely never use. I do hesitate to say one breed is the best choice for someone that I don't know their area or environment. What I do say is what works for me. It is those who say you have to raise this breed or that breed or you are stupid that I don't agree with. That only one the breed they raise is the best. I will continue to try different breeds when I feel they may benefit us. We tried the Gelbveigh influence and didn't feel it benefitted us. But I see those I like and know breeders it works for. So would never tell anyone it was a bad choice or not to use them.

And back to the original question about Hereford purity. There are known outside crosses in Herefords that was never addressed. So compared to Herefords of many years ago they aren't as pure. And like I've stated on the other site that is why I don't consider certain bloodlines that dominate the current Hereford population. The cattle don't produce uniform progeny. I attribute it too the mix of influences and as a commercial breeder I don't know what they are so can't make an informed breeding decision. Again we each are entitled to our opinions.
3 x

User avatar
SPH
Trail Boss
Trail Boss
Posts: 460
Joined: Sun May 05, 2013 8:47 pm
Location: Iowa
Contact:

Re: Help me understand

Postby SPH » Tue Dec 05, 2017 11:14 pm

elkwc wrote:
ALACOWMAN wrote:
Bullitt wrote:
I thought we were discussing various ways to raise profitable cattle. Discussing using different breeds and crosses is not reinventing the wheel, it is just looking at the possibilities.

It is wonderful that you are happy with your cattle. But why shoot down other ways of doing it by other people?
just because I view it from a different angle doesn't make me a bad guy...what I'm saying is ,raise the best of """whatever"" breed you want..you ask questions but have selective hearing. some answers will be what you don't want to hear...


I agree with you. Each of us as breeders have a different situation and many of us have totally different environments. Each of us have had different experiences with different breeds. What sells and performs well in one area doesn't in another. I try not to trash breeds. I see cattle I like in breeds I will likely never use. I do hesitate to say one breed is the best choice for someone that I don't know their area or environment. What I do say is what works for me. It is those who say you have to raise this breed or that breed or you are stupid that I don't agree with. That only one the breed they raise is the best. I will continue to try different breeds when I feel they may benefit us. We tried the Gelbveigh influence and didn't feel it benefitted us. But I see those I like and know breeders it works for. So would never tell anyone it was a bad choice or not to use them.

And back to the original question about Hereford purity. There are known outside crosses in Herefords that was never addressed. So compared to Herefords of many years ago they aren't as pure. And like I've stated on the other site that is why I don't consider certain bloodlines that dominate the current Hereford population. The cattle don't produce uniform progeny. I attribute it too the mix of influences and as a commercial breeder I don't know what they are so can't make an informed breeding decision. Again we each are entitled to our opinions.


That bolded last part is much more opinion than it is anything close to fact at this point and I'm trying to respond to that in a civil manner where I respect the right to have a point of view even if I don't necessarily agree with it. I tried to bite my tongue and stay out of the purity topic but I've got to the point where it's getting rather ridiculous some of the things certain people are trying to claim as fact when they have nothing but hearsay, rumors, and 3rd person accounts of without any published facts or data to back those claims. You are entitled to your opinion on the breed purity thing as is everyone but there has yet to be any conclusive or factual tests or data that has proven the impurity claims that some over on Hereford Talk have spun and twisted to the point of obsession. It's even more sad that for people who are breeding Herefords for a living some of those same people feel the need to take such a negative view and essentially devalue the very breed they claim they love, advance, and promote by constantly claiming the breed is impure. What I don't understand is how the same people who are saying that genomics are inaccurate and a waste of time and resources are the same ones clamoring for a reliable test for breed purity. If genomics are unreliable and inaccurate then how will we ever be able to trust the accuracy of a breed purity test using DNA if the same people calling for a purity test don't trust the science that goes into it? Same thing with those who think that breed associations need to go away, without a breed association to administrate registrations just how do you propose keeping breeders in check without a governing body to have checks and balances in place to make sure someone doesn't insert an outside breed into the registry without a set of rules and way to check parentage? It would become a much more relevant thing if the science behind a purity test was fail proof but until it is breeders are entitled to manage their programs in a manner they feel is in their best interests and deal with potential issues if and when a reliable purity test is proven to be accurate. Those programs that have stood the test of time and have had success didn't do it by being EPD chasers or following the latest show ring trends like some seem to thing is the dominate thinking within the breed. That's enough on the purity stuff, it's become this :deadhorse: to even debate it anymore with some people. It's a 1 sided discussion on Hereford Talk these days because the website owner has banned anyone who has a differing opinion than him so to even mention it as a reference doesn't hold much water because the conversation leans to a certain bias and at least here you aren't censored for having a different point of view and allowed to speak your mind.

I completely agree with you comments on environment factors. What works well for 1 guy in 1 area may not work for another in their area. And what kind of cattle breeders in your area can definitely dictate the value and market for certain cattle. You and I have had discussions on this how in your area the market doesn't seem as strong for Herefords but in our area the market is much stronger and we see more demand for Hereford bulls than some may in other areas. We aren't going to tell someone what they should or should not be breeding because guys are going to breed whatever they feel does the best for them, but we do hope they consider looking into the value a Hereford bull can add to a commercial herd or the hardiness and longevity a Hereford female adds as well.

Not sure that I have ever told you this previously Jay but it may surprise you that a long time back we did have some crossbred females in our herd before we eventually sent the last of them off to the sale barn either for temperament, open, or performance reasons. Had some black Angus, shorthorn, Saler, and Gelbvieh influence in those female that depending on the color of the female we'd cross with an Angus or Gelbvieh sire then turn out cleanup with our Hereford bull. Had some great calves out of those cows, temperament was the biggest negatives especially those with the mostly black Angus influence but they sure weaned a nice calf. A lot of the larger Hereford breeders we know or have visited usually have a pasture of commercial females - most of black Angus influence but also some other mixes - so they too are taking advantage of crossbreeding their Hereford bulls with commercial cows.
1 x

elkwc
Rancher
Rancher
Posts: 707
Joined: Mon Apr 28, 2014 10:21 pm

Re: Help me understand

Postby elkwc » Tue Dec 05, 2017 11:37 pm

SPH wrote:
elkwc wrote:
ALACOWMAN wrote: just because I view it from a different angle doesn't make me a bad guy...what I'm saying is ,raise the best of """whatever"" breed you want..you ask questions but have selective hearing. some answers will be what you don't want to hear...


I agree with you. Each of us as breeders have a different situation and many of us have totally different environments. Each of us have had different experiences with different breeds. What sells and performs well in one area doesn't in another. I try not to trash breeds. I see cattle I like in breeds I will likely never use. I do hesitate to say one breed is the best choice for someone that I don't know their area or environment. What I do say is what works for me. It is those who say you have to raise this breed or that breed or you are stupid that I don't agree with. That only one the breed they raise is the best. I will continue to try different breeds when I feel they may benefit us. We tried the Gelbveigh influence and didn't feel it benefitted us. But I see those I like and know breeders it works for. So would never tell anyone it was a bad choice or not to use them.

And back to the original question about Hereford purity. There are known outside crosses in Herefords that was never addressed. So compared to Herefords of many years ago they aren't as pure. And like I've stated on the other site that is why I don't consider certain bloodlines that dominate the current Hereford population. The cattle don't produce uniform progeny. I attribute it too the mix of influences and as a commercial breeder I don't know what they are so can't make an informed breeding decision. Again we each are entitled to our opinions.


That bolded last part is much more opinion than it is anything close to fact at this point and I'm trying to respond to that in a civil manner where I respect the right to have a point of view even if I don't necessarily agree with it. I tried to bite my tongue and stay out of the purity topic but I've got to the point where it's getting rather ridiculous some of the things certain people are trying to claim as fact when they have nothing but hearsay, rumors, and 3rd person accounts of without any published facts or data to back those claims. You are entitled to your opinion on the breed purity thing as is everyone but there has yet to be any conclusive or factual tests or data that has proven the impurity claims that some over on Hereford Talk have spun and twisted to the point of obsession. It's even more sad that for people who are breeding Herefords for a living some of those same people feel the need to take such a negative view and essentially devalue the very breed they claim they love, advance, and promote by constantly claiming the breed is impure. What I don't understand is how the same people who are saying that genomics are inaccurate and a waste of time and resources are the same ones clamoring for a reliable test for breed purity. If genomics are unreliable and inaccurate then how will we ever be able to trust the accuracy of a breed purity test using DNA if the same people calling for a purity test don't trust the science that goes into it? Same thing with those who think that breed associations need to go away, without a breed association to administrate registrations just how do you propose keeping breeders in check without a governing body to have checks and balances in place to make sure someone doesn't insert an outside breed into the registry without a set of rules and way to check parentage? It would become a much more relevant thing if the science behind a purity test was fail proof but until it is breeders are entitled to manage their programs in a manner they feel is in their best interests and deal with potential issues if and when a reliable purity test is proven to be accurate. Those programs that have stood the test of time and have had success didn't do it by being EPD chasers or following the latest show ring trends like some seem to thing is the dominate thinking within the breed. That's enough on the purity stuff, it's become this :deadhorse: to even debate it anymore with some people. It's a 1 sided discussion on Hereford Talk these days because the website owner has banned anyone who has a differing opinion than him so to even mention it as a reference doesn't hold much water because the conversation leans to a certain bias and at least here you aren't censored for having a different point of view and allowed to speak your mind.

I completely agree with you comments on environment factors. What works well for 1 guy in 1 area may not work for another in their area. And what kind of cattle breeders in your area can definitely dictate the value and market for certain cattle. You and I have had discussions on this how in your area the market doesn't seem as strong for Herefords but in our area the market is much stronger and we see more demand for Hereford bulls than some may in other areas. We aren't going to tell someone what they should or should not be breeding because guys are going to breed whatever they feel does the best for them, but we do hope they consider looking into the value a Hereford bull can add to a commercial herd or the hardiness and longevity a Hereford female adds as well.

Not sure that I have ever told you this previously Jay but it may surprise you that a long time back we did have some crossbred females in our herd before we eventually sent the last of them off to the sale barn either for temperament, open, or performance reasons. Had some black Angus, shorthorn, Saler, and Gelbvieh influence in those female that depending on the color of the female we'd cross with an Angus or Gelbvieh sire then turn out cleanup with our Hereford bull. Had some great calves out of those cows, temperament was the biggest negatives especially those with the mostly black Angus influence but they sure weaned a nice calf. A lot of the larger Hereford breeders we know or have visited usually have a pasture of commercial females - most of black Angus influence but also some other mixes - so they too are taking advantage of crossbreeding their Hereford bulls with commercial cows.


So Travis you are going to say that Titan was a pure Hereford? If so I'm not sure how much evidence you would need to convince you he wasn't. I haven't talked to another Hereford breeder that was around at that time that don't say he wasn't a crossbred. All of the issues associated with him and his progeny proved beyond a doubt that he was. I have talked to some commercial breeders who experienced issuses with cattle that went back to him and there were a few others also. I place more credence in what someone who was around and affected tells me than what someone who didn't have any stake or knowledge of a situation says. Like I've stated there is obvious crosses in the Angus breed also. I know Angus breeders who have told me certain bloodlines to stay away from. Putting your head in the sand and denying the obvious isn't helping the Hereford breed. The lack of uniformity and consistency along with off colors among Herefords is hurting them overall. Those from reputable breeders sell good but the others around here are docked heavy. As you know we purchased some Hereford heifers but had to do a lot of looking to find some we felt was pure. And you also know we have looked for a polled bull but can't find one without any Titan influence that is the quality we are looking for.
0 x


Return to “Breeds Board”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: ANAZAZI, Till-Hill and 9 guests