Angus Maternal sires

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la4angus
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Re: Angus Maternal sires

Postby la4angus » Mon Jun 07, 2004 6:18 pm

Larry Sansom wrote:
Frankie wrote:"His calves are beatting all those high EPD bulls in the real world!"

Hey, Larry, before I go look at your bull, exactly how is he "beatting" all those high EPD bulls? On performance tests? In the show ring? Sales of semen? Thanks....
simple wean wt vs other bulls - AI sired bulls that are highly promoted by the Show Jocks. Put the cows on grass - knock out the props of pampered cows with creep feeders and just let nature do the culling. With high maintenance cows and the big EPD's - you MUST feed them and then the PROFIT goes to the feed company. Cows are ruminants- as soon as you start changing that basic plan, your meat looses CLA's, Omega 3 to Omega 6 ratio goes out the window, vit E level in the meat is half, and the most important Profit is not as high as with grass only production cows. With the longevety in his pedigree, I'm positive his daughters will out live most anybull in the AI studs line up.


Larry
What are the weaning weights and at what age of your calves. Also what are their 365 day yearling wts?
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old time genetics

Postby PATB » Mon Jun 07, 2004 6:31 pm

What makes this Octoraro Fabron 454 so great? Why should I use this bull who's WW, YW Epd's are less than 1/2 what I consider acceptable EPD's for an AI sires in my herd? He has no carcass data and I see no performance how his offspring are performing. Please convince me why this bull is so much better tham SA Neutron 377, BCC Bushwacker 41-93, bon view emualtion ext 473.
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Postby Larry Sansom » Mon Jun 07, 2004 6:34 pm

la4angus - the best figures would be ratio's since every climate and management program is different. Within a herd - ratio's tell me much more than raw weaning figures. My bulls typically beat the AI bulls by 3-8 % ie a 100 ratio bull vs a 108 ratio. Wean weights are the biggest lie around - what age did you wean, creep, adjusted or actual etc...therefore I put more weight on ratio within a herd on contemporaries within a management group.
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Postby PATB » Mon Jun 07, 2004 6:40 pm

larry quote
la4angus - the best figures would be ratio's since every climate and management program is different. Within a herd - ratio's tell me much more than raw weaning figures. My bulls typically beat the AI bulls by 3-8 % ie a 100 ratio bull vs a 108 ratio. Wean weights are the biggest lie around - what age did you wean, creep, adjusted or actual etc...therefore I put more weight on ratio within a herd on contemporaries within a management group.



Which AI Bulls are you currently using and what ones have you used in the past?
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Re: old time genetics

Postby Larry Sansom » Mon Jun 07, 2004 6:41 pm

PATB wrote:What makes this Octoraro Fabron 454 so great? Why should I use this bull who's WW, YW Epd's are less than 1/2 what I consider acceptable EPD's for an AI sires in my herd? He has no carcass data and I see no performance how his offspring are performing. Please convince me why this bull is so much better tham SA Neutron 377, BCC Bushwacker 41-93, bon view emualtion ext 473.
What are your breeding goals with those bulls? There is 0 linebreeding in them, there is no proven dams of 18 years old and still going to flush center with a calf at side, only show jock promoting a numbers race. I am NOT breeding for the feed lot guys. I am breeding for the cow-calf producer who is making a profit on grass only cows without high inputs. So many of the seedstock sector thrive on wasted motion, lots of comotion and really big promotion - in order to sell the illusion created by all the confusion.
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Postby PATB » Mon Jun 07, 2004 7:03 pm

My mission statement for the breeding program "Produce superior quality breeding stock that excel in growth, maternal and carcass traits to enable all sectors of the beef industry to produce a profit". The cows have to make it on grass and hay and minerals. The young stock are given some grain after weaning so they reach an acceptable size for breeding in late winter early spring. If a cow cannot make it on grass and wean me a acceptable calf every year she grows wheels. [/i]
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Postby Larry Sansom » Mon Jun 07, 2004 8:51 pm

PATB wrote:My mission statement for the breeding program "Produce superior quality breeding stock that excel in growth, maternal and carcass traits to enable all sectors of the beef industry to produce a profit". The cows have to make it on grass and hay and minerals. The young stock are given some grain after weaning so they reach an acceptable size for breeding in late winter early spring. If a cow cannot make it on grass and wean me a acceptable calf every year she grows wheels. [/i]
Good program - Maine probably requires some grain - mine never get anything but grass. Suggest also looking at http://www.pharocattle.com and http://www.evergreenangus.com, and http://www.diamonddangus.com, plus subscribe to Stockman grass Farmer Magazine. (http://www.stockmangrassfarmer.com) There is a greater movement out here wanting low input cattle with proven- linebred genetics than the show jocks ever want to believe.
SPA-IRM figures from Iowa & Illinois state that the factors explaining variation in cow calf profits are 02.7 % calf price, 04.6% calf weight, 04.9% operating cost but 56.7% Feed cost. You MUST control cow size to make a profit - cows will eat the same % of their body weight if they weigh 1100 or 1800 Lbs. It does not take a CPA to figure the profit is in smaller cows, bred to high growth bulls.
The original question to this line was what is the best Angus MATERNAL BULL - Even though his sire was born in 1957 - with low epd's (his sire mature weight was over a ton) I still stand by Octoraro Fabron 454.
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Postby Larry Sansom » Mon Jun 07, 2004 9:01 pm

PATB wrote:My mission statement for the breeding program "Produce superior quality breeding stock that excel in growth, maternal and carcass traits to enable all sectors of the beef industry to produce a profit". The cows have to make it on grass and hay and minerals. The young stock are given some grain after weaning so they reach an acceptable size for breeding in late winter early spring. If a cow cannot make it on grass and wean me a acceptable calf every year she grows wheels. [/i]
I went back and read your mission statement - strongly suggest you decide if you are producing cattle that excel in maternal or growth - these are genetic antaganistic (spelling sorry) also you will never get all sectors to be profitable - you had better worry about your own herd profits and forget worring about the feedlots profit. Keep sending cows to town that do not produce for you and you will look back and see the profitable cows are what I have described.
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Postby la4angus » Mon Jun 07, 2004 9:23 pm

Larry
You haven't answered my or Patb's question, All you are doing is "Spinning". You sound like a Democrap. I and Patb asked you an honest question and I and I expect that Patb expect an honest answer. I can give you my cattle 205 day actual weaning weights and adj. 205 day wts.
Will you do the same instead of spinning.
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Postby Larry Sansom » Tue Jun 08, 2004 7:13 am

la4angus wrote:Larry
You haven't answered my or Patb's question, All you are doing is "Spinning". You sound like a Democrap. I and Patb asked you an honest question and I and I expect that Patb expect an honest answer. I can give you my cattle 205 day actual weaning weights and adj. 205 day wts.
Will you do the same instead of spinning.
Sorry - you just don't get it. My 205 wts range from 500-700, depending on am I breeding for terminal or replacemets, heifers or mature cows, fall or spring calving etc.. No creep, No pampering. Cows are sorted by contemporary groups to keep from slanting the ratio's. Wean and Adj wean weights are meaningless unless you compare regions of the country, management and cattle types. Cows down south will always have smaller calves than those out west, just like the deer are smaller in Fl. than in Wy. This computer will lay here and let me type any number I want - just like many exaggerated progeny deception (EPD ) records. I can make a lot more money with those 500 wt calves- more of them per acre, but some bull buyers want those big wean weights - thus the need to breed a few of those giants to sell to the uninformed. Quit "spinning" your wheels in your poverty- get the majority of your cows into the smaller frame score, and put more of them on the farm - More calves ALWAYS sell for more money than less calves regardless of size. Look at net Profit - not the University push for production only and big production per unit with no idea of NET profit.
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Postby Larry Sansom » Tue Jun 08, 2004 7:41 am

PATB wrote:larry quote
la4angus - the best figures would be ratio's since every climate and management program is different. Within a herd - ratio's tell me much more than raw weaning figures. My bulls typically beat the AI bulls by 3-8 % ie a 100 ratio bull vs a 108 ratio. Wean weights are the biggest lie around - what age did you wean, creep, adjusted or actual etc...therefore I put more weight on ratio within a herd on contemporaries within a management group.



Which AI Bulls are you currently using and what ones have you used in the past?

Some think I am not answering your questions - but Spectrum ( a sorry excuse of a bull) was used recently as was Bottomline - (not bad for a 6807-Dateline) with decent scrotal. Also used several Pharo Cattle Genetics (unless you look them up you will not recognize them) - Encore 492, Moderator and several 6807 sons -Rockett, and Emblazon. I sell all these because they look good as calves- but the heifers all have that breeding problem of a low scrotal sire and have proven to not work for me. Have also used several New Trend bulls and various sons in the past- all of them are terrible on pasture with no pambering. EXT and sons have been used - not bad if you can find the calm ones. EXT is line bred half sister half brother mating from Emulation 31 -thus my love of the Emulation31 dam and the addition to Fabron's pedigree. Those long haired Stockman 365 cattle really suffer in our area - terrible calves as were those old bulls like marriott. Ginger Hill bulls have not been bad - lots of good dams in their lines but they mess it up with 6807 and new trend. Yes Ive tried a big variety, but keep coming back to what the customers want - good production cows that will work on pasture without pampering. Shoshone line cattle from WY are about the best - due mostly that they originated from old Wye blood. Therefore The Fabron of Wye son was found to bring back that depth of body, udder quality, correct frame score, disposition, masculanity, etc that is never mentioned in the AI stud books or those glossy pictures of a bull in front of some show banner that has never had to breed cows in the heat and humidity of the real pastures of KY. If you want to keep breeding to the Bull of the Month - keep it up. I really do not want all seedstock breeders to follow my path, who needs the competition! But for your better understanding of the beef industry - leave the Angus Journal on the table and search some of those sites and magazines I referred you to.
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breeding

Postby PATB » Tue Jun 08, 2004 1:47 pm

Larry we used to subscribe to the stockman grassfarmer but it does not apply to the northeast that well. In my area of maine you plan for feeding hay from sometime in october to may. Some years you could successfully stockpile forage for winter grazing but most year you have to deal with snow, ice, mud and frozen water challenges. Dad has been doing rotational grazing and pasture mangagement since the 50's. The smaller cows you are advocating do not winter as well as some of the 1200 to 1500 lb cows of between frame score 5 and 6. I personally do not like the 1600+ lb frame score 6+ cows. With AI we select the bulls to complement the cows. Growth and maternal can be selected for at the same time but it takes good records and strick attention to detail. If you plan on raising your cattle on grass then select you seed stock from a producer who raises his cattle like you intend to. It is possible to produce cattle that makes all sectors of the industry money.
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Postby dun » Tue Jun 08, 2004 4:36 pm

Stockman grassfarmer-

I got one of their free sample copies and found two glaring BS type errors. The one I remember claerly was about a guy that had line bred Herefords. He claimed that his bulls were so prepotent that when he bred them to registered black Angus the calves had horns. I don;t rememeber the the other one but it was just as inaccurate.
When I asked them about it they never responded. Don't believe everything you read in there.

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Postby WORANCH » Tue Jun 08, 2004 10:54 pm

[quote="dun"]Stockman grassfarmer-

I got one of their free sample copies and found two glaring BS type errors. The one I remember claerly was about a guy that had line bred Herefords. He claimed that his bulls were so prepotent that when he bred them to registered black Angus the calves had horns. I don;t rememeber the the other one but it was just as inaccurate.
When I asked them about it they never responded. Don't believe everything you read in there.

dun[/quote

i bought an angus bull last year, breed him to horn cows . i have 3 steers with horns in this years calves . he must have a horn gene , i will not be buying anymore bulls from that angus breeder,,,,,,,,,
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Postby dun » Wed Jun 09, 2004 1:49 am

Still haven't seen any negative comments on Glacier Nyack!

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