2way and 3waycross explained.

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2way and 3waycross explained.

Postby 3waycross » Tue Sep 27, 2011 11:13 pm

A brief and concise explanation from the Red Angus Assn

http://npaper-server.com/ara/2011/10/#?article=1385991
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Re: 2way and 3waycross explained.

Postby DOC HARRIS » Tue Sep 27, 2011 11:51 pm

3waycross-

Excellent choice on your part to help explain the rather complicated protocols of crossbreeding! Many times breeders engage in conversations of various beef cattle actvities, and think that they know the ins and outs of the subject, but crossbreeding is not easy to understand, and less easy to explain. This is a fine article on the suject. Thank you for bringing it to the CT folks.

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Re: 2way and 3waycross explained.

Postby dun » Wed Sep 28, 2011 1:18 am

I asked Macon to make this a sticky!
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Re: 2way and 3waycross explained.

Postby ANAZAZI » Wed Sep 28, 2011 2:08 am

May I just add that there is no more heterosis mating a crossbred bull A x B to a purebred cow C than to mate a bull A to a cow B.

The three way cross benefits occur only if the cow is crossbred! :2cents:
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Re: 2way and 3waycross explained.

Postby Keren » Wed Sep 28, 2011 4:32 am

ANAZAZI wrote:May I just add that there is no more heterosis mating a crossbred bull A x B to a purebred cow C than to mate a bull A to a cow B.

The three way cross benefits occur only if the cow is crossbred! :2cents:

Why is that? Doesn't make logical sense to me. Granted I haven't read the link yet.
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Re: 2way and 3waycross explained.

Postby ANAZAZI » Wed Sep 28, 2011 4:49 am

Keren wrote:
ANAZAZI wrote:May I just add that there is no more heterosis mating a crossbred bull A x B to a purebred cow C than to mate a bull A to a cow B.

The three way cross benefits occur only if the cow is crossbred! :2cents:

Why is that? Doesn't make logical sense to me. Granted I haven't read the link yet.


That is because heterosis is basically the benefits of non-homozygosity and that is achieved in the first cross. The point of threeway crosses is that the cow is crossbred, with all the positives from that, and the calf has the positives from it being crossbred. Of course a calf benefits from having a mother that is healthier, milk more and care a little more for it than a purebred cow would.

This is also why it does not matter in terms of heterosis if the calfs father is a crossbred or not.
However; crossbred bulls are negative for consistency in the calf crop in the same way crossbred cows are, but without the benefits.
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Re: 2way and 3waycross explained.

Postby Till-Hill » Wed Sep 28, 2011 8:04 am

In genetics class few years ago we learned and I have read since then that the most hybred vigor is obtained from an F1 female to a differnt F1 male making the resulting calves 25% of each breed?
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Re: 2way and 3waycross explained.

Postby 3waycross » Wed Sep 28, 2011 8:18 am

ANAZAZI wrote:May I just add that there is no more heterosis mating a crossbred bull A x B to a purebred cow C than to mate a bull A to a cow B.

The three way cross benefits occur only if the cow is crossbred! :2cents:


The model does not reintroduce purebred cows, so what is your point?
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Re: 2way and 3waycross explained.

Postby ANAZAZI » Wed Sep 28, 2011 9:00 am

3waycross wrote:
ANAZAZI wrote:May I just add that there is no more heterosis mating a crossbred bull A x B to a purebred cow C than to mate a bull A to a cow B.

The three way cross benefits occur only if the cow is crossbred! :2cents:


The model does not reintroduce purebred cows, so what is your point?


The model involves crossbred cows, where much of the benefits of crossbreeding lies. More so than using crossbred bulls.
Perhaps my post does not fit the link in the original post.
However, I thought it relevant anyway. If there is something wrong with my post, please tell us here, or PM me. It is hardly the worst hijacking known to man, is it?
Last edited by ANAZAZI on Wed Sep 28, 2011 9:09 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 2way and 3waycross explained.

Postby 3waycross » Wed Sep 28, 2011 9:06 am

Anazazi I am not saying you are wrong however from a genetic point of view I don't think it makes a difference. What I do not want to do here is start another argument about using crossbred bulls.

Relative to my first post though. The whole model uses crossbred cows and purebred bulls so you were just agreeing to what had already been stated! No?
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Re: 2way and 3waycross explained.

Postby 3waycross » Wed Sep 28, 2011 9:09 am

Till-Hill wrote:In genetics class few years ago we learned and I have read since then that the most hybred vigor is obtained from an F1 female to a differnt F1 male making the resulting calves 25% of each breed?


There is a fella in southwest Colo who sells bulls made up that way. I have seen them and they are not much to look at but they throw some good calves, not sure why?
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Re: 2way and 3waycross explained.

Postby Till-Hill » Wed Sep 28, 2011 11:14 am

3way I think mostly because of having 4 breeds the consitancy gets lost a little bit. Kinda like these club calves. I am still pursueing making some 4way calves, will they be used as bulls? Time will tell. I think the females will make great cows and will more than likely mate them to F1 bulls......

On another note of crossbreeding doesn't consistancy get better when you use an F1 x F1, say a simangus x simangus? I am trying some of that too but it is hard when most of the half bloods are all related and I don't linebreed.......
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Re: 2way and 3waycross explained.

Postby double v » Wed Sep 28, 2011 11:24 am

If you read the article it will go into purebred breeding and terminal sires , read first then comment. That article helps both purebred breeders and the commercial breeder.
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Re: 2way and 3waycross explained.

Postby ANAZAZI » Wed Sep 28, 2011 11:39 am

[quote="Till-Hill]

On another note of crossbreeding doesn't consistancy get better when you use an F1 x F1, say a simangus x simangus? I am trying some of that too but it is hard when most of the half bloods are all related and I don't linebreed.......[/quote]

If your F1 cattle have a yellow pied sim bull and a black angus for parents:
The result of breeding F1 to F1 will give you A progeny commonly referred to as Heinz 57.
Some will be muscular, some not, polled, scurred, horned, some red, some black, yellow, grey, solid or with markings, some long, short, high, low, e.t.c.
And the heterosis will be reduced to 50% compared to the first cross.
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Re: 2way and 3waycross explained.

Postby 3waycross » Wed Sep 28, 2011 11:57 am

Till-Hill wrote:3way I think mostly because of having 4 breeds the consitancy gets lost a little bit. Kinda like these club calves. I am still pursueing making some 4way calves, will they be used as bulls? Time will tell. I think the females will make great cows and will more than likely mate them to F1 bulls......

On another note of crossbreeding doesn't consistancy get better when you use an F1 x F1, say a simangus x simangus? I am trying some of that too but it is hard when most of the half bloods are all related and I don't linebreed.......


What I was told on this is if you use a Balancer that is a GV/Angus cow then if you want to standardize the offspring a little more to go the other way with a Angus/GV bull. Just a theory based on anecdotal experience not empirical data. I am going to try it on some heifers that I am keeping this fall they are all 3 out of the Angus/GV cross and I will use semen from a GV/Angus Balancer bull on them. 2 are 3/4 sisters and the other is unrelated. So even tho it's a small group it will give me something to compare.
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