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Re: 2way and 3waycross explained.

Posted: Wed Sep 28, 2011 1:15 pm
by dun
Till-Hill wrote:3way I think mostly because of having 4 breeds the consitancy gets lost a little bit. Kinda like these club calves. I am still pursueing making some 4way calves, will they be used as bulls? Time will tell. I think the females will make great cows and will more than likely mate them to F1 bulls......

On another note of crossbreeding doesn't consistancy get better when you use an F1 x F1, say a simangus x simangus? I am trying some of that too but it is hard when most of the half bloods are all related and I don't linebreed.......

F1s of identical genetic makeup will have less heterosis then either of the parents. It's called breed regression.

Re: 2way and 3waycross explained.

Posted: Wed Sep 28, 2011 2:25 pm
by 3waycross
dun wrote:
Till-Hill wrote:3way I think mostly because of having 4 breeds the consitancy gets lost a little bit. Kinda like these club calves. I am still pursueing making some 4way calves, will they be used as bulls? Time will tell. I think the females will make great cows and will more than likely mate them to F1 bulls......

On another note of crossbreeding doesn't consistancy get better when you use an F1 x F1, say a simangus x simangus? I am trying some of that too but it is hard when most of the half bloods are all related and I don't linebreed.......

F1s of identical genetic makeup will have less heterosis then either of the parents. It's called breed regression.


How much heterosis would you think would be lost by going F-1 to F-1

Re: 2way and 3waycross explained.

Posted: Wed Sep 28, 2011 2:38 pm
by ALACOWMAN
cut it in half

Re: 2way and 3waycross explained.

Posted: Wed Sep 28, 2011 2:44 pm
by regolith
50%. I found a chart in the back of my AI catalogue, don't know where they get these numbers from but:

Generation 2 breeds 3 breeds xbred bull
1 100% 100% 50%
2 50% 100% 50%
3 75% 75% 50%
4 63% 88% 50%
This company is promoting rotational crossing, showing a 2-way cross stabilising at about 66% heterosis, a three-way at about 85%. The other major dairy AI company promotes xbred bulls, marketing this as the 'easy option' with 50% heterosis bonus! (and has successfully got lot of holstein farmers putting their whole herd to kiwicross???)

Is there a special trick to viewing the article? I haven't seen that format before, can see the frame but no text or scroll bars.

Re: 2way and 3waycross explained.

Posted: Wed Sep 28, 2011 2:48 pm
by regolith
I didn't think the table would show up right - but should be decipherable. Another 2c: my general opinion is that the *only* good use for a crossbred bull in the dairy situation is accessing genetics from superior crossbred animals that would otherwise have influence only through their daughters.

Re: 2way and 3waycross explained.

Posted: Wed Sep 28, 2011 3:02 pm
by fitz
As you guys know by now I'm a little slow so clear the water for me.

I'm running simmental cows with an Angus Bull. I really like the heifers I'm getting. So, if I start retaining these heifers, transform my herd to this base of cow, the best way for me to go with them is back to a Simmental Bull?

fitz

Re: 2way and 3waycross explained.

Posted: Wed Sep 28, 2011 3:23 pm
by ALACOWMAN
you will hit your lick adding a third cross to em it was for me anyway

Re: 2way and 3waycross explained.

Posted: Wed Sep 28, 2011 3:25 pm
by dun
fitz wrote:As you guys know by now I'm a little slow so clear the water for me.

I'm running simmental cows with an Angus Bull. I really like the heifers I'm getting. So, if I start retaining these heifers, transform my herd to this base of cow, the best way for me to go with them is back to a Simmental Bull?

fitz

Nope the best would be a third pure breed to be used on the F1 cows. That would be for terminal calves. That's always been one of the problems with crossbreeding is having a source for either good F1s or having to keep some purebred cows to be used to make those F1s

Re: 2way and 3waycross explained.

Posted: Wed Sep 28, 2011 4:39 pm
by Till-Hill
I don't see the 3rd cross being "terminal" in my herd. When crossbreeding you have to use lines that complement eachother......I started with a good angus base. Used polled hereford bulls and on them F1's I put a simmental on them. I am hoping I can say they will be my best cows but my first one is due today. On her I used a herf/angus/tarantaise Pharo composite bull to end up with about a 25% of each breed calf and she is carrying a heifer.

On that calf I would plan on using a simangus bull and breeding the herf and tarantaise out of her.

We are talking small numbers with my herd but in 6-7 years of my fall cows and 50-60 head of calves I have yet to have a PB calf out weigh a x-bred one @ weaning time.

Re: 2way and 3waycross explained.

Posted: Wed Sep 28, 2011 10:30 pm
by Beef Man
My o my so goes the mongrel''ization of some beef cattle. The good well thoughtout crossbreeding programs being used today are the true moneymakers,for all segments of the industry. Why mess with such a mixture unless you just want tosee what they would look like.

Re: 2way and 3waycross explained.

Posted: Wed Sep 28, 2011 10:38 pm
by 3waycross
Beef Man wrote:My o my so goes the mongrel''ization of some beef cattle. The good well thoughtout crossbreeding programs being used today are the true moneymakers,for all segments of the industry. Why mess with such a mixture unless you just want tosee what they would look like.


Did you actually read the research. If so then are you saying that heterosis is BS?

Re: 2way and 3waycross explained.

Posted: Wed Sep 28, 2011 11:00 pm
by ANAZAZI
3waycross wrote:
Beef Man wrote:My o my so goes the mongrel''ization of some beef cattle. The good well thoughtout crossbreeding programs being used today are the true moneymakers,for all segments of the industry. Why mess with such a mixture unless you just want tosee what they would look like.


Did you actually read the research. If so then are you saying that heterosis is BS?


I think he is referring to tillhills experiment. Not to crossbreeding in general nor is he denying the great effects of heterosis.

Re: 2way and 3waycross explained.

Posted: Wed Sep 28, 2011 11:34 pm
by 3waycross
You are probably right I need to start using the 2.5 diopter reading glasses more often.

Re: 2way and 3waycross explained.

Posted: Thu Sep 29, 2011 5:50 am
by Till-Hill
Well I'm not saying my crossbred cattle ain't crossed up something but what is 90% of the U.S. commercial herd and the calves hitting the sale barn? Most people started with angus or hereford cows, then used the the angus bull on the herf cows then a few years later they ran a big old yellow and white simmy, then maybe a char, then a maine, then a saler, and on and on......

I'm just hoping with a planned cross the results will be better and if not, they will sure fit in with most of the commercial operations in the world today.

And what are these club calves today?

I mean in the end all a beef man needs is a cow to lay down and calve unassisted raise a big calf and do it for years to come.

Re: 2way and 3waycross explained.

Posted: Thu Sep 29, 2011 8:46 am
by redcowsrule33
3waycross wrote:On another note of crossbreeding doesn't consistancy get better when you use an F1 x F1, say a simangus x simangus? I am trying some of that too but it is hard when most of the half bloods are all related and I don't linebreed.......


In a word, no. Think about it. In an F1 cross you are guaranteed that 50% of the genetics come from Simmental and 50% from Angus. However, when you do and F1 x F1, there is no guarantee of what breed the genes will come from. Sperm from an F1 will be a mix of genes that range from 100% Simmental to 100% Angus based on probability. Same with the cow (ok, the mitochondrial DNA from the dam will be exclusively from her dam so it depends on the breed of the dam of the F1 but let's not confound things). So you end up with a bunch of calves that are very inconsistent; the F2 cross will give you maximum inconsistency. Creating a breed from other breeds takes a long time as you need to select continually for consistency in the traits you desire until you get a group of cattle that breeds true.

If you want a good example of what I'm talking about google pictures of F1 Golden Doodles (dogs) and F2 Golden Doodles (or Labradoodles). I'm not a Doodle fan or of any designer dog for that matter but they provide an excellent visual of what happens when you cross F1's.