2way and 3waycross explained.

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Re: 2way and 3waycross explained.

Postby 3waycross » Thu Sep 29, 2011 8:50 am

redcowsrule33 wrote:
3waycross wrote:On another note of crossbreeding doesn't consistancy get better when you use an F1 x F1, say a simangus x simangus? I am trying some of that too but it is hard when most of the half bloods are all related and I don't linebreed.......


In a word, no. Think about it. In an F1 cross you are guaranteed that 50% of the genetics come from Simmental and 50% from Angus. However, when you do and F1 x F1, there is no guarantee of what breed the genes will come from. Sperm from an F1 will be a mix of genes that range from 100% Simmental to 100% Angus based on probability. Same with the cow (ok, the mitochondrial DNA from the dam will be exclusively from her dam so it depends on the breed of the dam of the F1 but let's not confound things). So you end up with a bunch of calves that are very inconsistent; the F2 cross will give you maximum inconsistency. Creating a breed from other breeds takes a long time as you need to select continually for consistency in the traits you desire until you get a group of cattle that breeds true.

If you want a good example of what I'm talking about google pictures of F1 Golden Doodles (dogs) and F2 Golden Doodles (or Labradoodles). I'm not a Doodle fan or of any designer dog for that matter but they provide an excellent visual of what happens when you cross F1's.


I didn't write that!
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Re: 2way and 3waycross explained.

Postby Till-Hill » Thu Sep 29, 2011 10:54 am

redcowsrule33 wrote:
3waycross wrote:On another note of crossbreeding doesn't consistancy get better when you use an F1 x F1, say a simangus x simangus? I am trying some of that too but it is hard when most of the half bloods are all related and I don't linebreed.......


In a word, no. Think about it. In an F1 cross you are guaranteed that 50% of the genetics come from Simmental and 50% from Angus. However, when you do and F1 x F1, there is no guarantee of what breed the genes will come from. Sperm from an F1 will be a mix of genes that range from 100% Simmental to 100% Angus based on probability. Same with the cow (ok, the mitochondrial DNA from the dam will be exclusively from her dam so it depends on the breed of the dam of the F1 but let's not confound things). So you end up with a bunch of calves that are very inconsistent; the F2 cross will give you maximum inconsistency. Creating a breed from other breeds takes a long time as you need to select continually for consistency in the traits you desire until you get a group of cattle that breeds true.

If you want a good example of what I'm talking about google pictures of F1 Golden Doodles (dogs) and F2 Golden Doodles (or Labradoodles). I'm not a Doodle fan or of any designer dog for that matter but they provide an excellent visual of what happens when you cross F1's.

Haha I see what your stepping in! Well I guess I will have to keep some PB cows around. I don't want to really make a new "breed" I just want to make a group of cows that are what I want and need! I seem to be going in the right direction and only time will tell.
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Re: 2way and 3waycross explained.

Postby double v » Thu Sep 29, 2011 11:09 am

Till-Hill why change seems like you have it all figured out, those people who did the research and studies probaly don't know anything. After reading some of these post i can see that i've been doing this cow thing wrong, science and research can be thrown out. In the link it tells you how to maximize your herd its a model, use it its been proven. I shared that link with 3- way because it makes sense and maybe just maybe someone would read it and benefit from it. Isn't the goal better genetics to produce a better product. I'll get off the soap box now but this is why i limited my post people will argue over help(ideals) for sucess.
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Re: 2way and 3waycross explained.

Postby Till-Hill » Thu Sep 29, 2011 11:41 am

Double V I am in no way argueing with you or the table of the %'s of hybred vigor. A herf x angus cow mated to a char bull will make a man some money. I am just trying to make more females out of these F1's I got around. I'm also not saying it's not perfect but isn't an F1 x F1 steer going to be better than a PB steer?
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Re: 2way and 3waycross explained.

Postby ALACOWMAN » Thu Sep 29, 2011 12:26 pm

I dont see it... you cant make a F1 reproduce herself..
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Re: 2way and 3waycross explained.

Postby Stocker Steve » Thu Sep 29, 2011 1:09 pm

Till-Hill wrote:I am hoping I can say they will be my best cows but my first one is due today. On her I used a herf/angus/tarantaise Pharo composite bull to end up with about a 25% of each breed calf and she is carrying a heifer.


I looked at these 2 and 3 way Tarantaise based bulls Pharo offers and I could not understand what you would use them for. Perhaps a terminal cross on pure breds?

It did not look like there are many sold so others must be confused as well. Any tips here?
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Re: 2way and 3waycross explained.

Postby fitz » Thu Sep 29, 2011 4:05 pm

dun wrote:
fitz wrote:As you guys know by now I'm a little slow so clear the water for me.

I'm running simmental cows with an Angus Bull. I really like the heifers I'm getting. So, if I start retaining these heifers, transform my herd to this base of cow, the best way for me to go with them is back to a Simmental Bull?

fitz

Nope the best would be a third pure breed to be used on the F1 cows. That would be for terminal calves. That's always been one of the problems with crossbreeding is having a source for either good F1s or having to keep some purebred cows to be used to make those F1s


Thanks Dun & Alacowman. Would you have any suggestions for consideration. Guess I'd need to stay black to satisfy the market. He'd have to learn to live off fescue and stilt grass.

fitz
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Re: 2way and 3waycross explained.

Postby Till-Hill » Thu Sep 29, 2011 4:23 pm

ALACOWMAN wrote:I dont see it... you cant make a F1 reproduce herself..

Well not exactly I suppose but using a simangus bull on a simangus cow is what I mean and keeping a 50%sim 50%ang calf......
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Re: 2way and 3waycross explained.

Postby Till-Hill » Thu Sep 29, 2011 4:26 pm

Stocker Steve wrote:
Till-Hill wrote:I am hoping I can say they will be my best cows but my first one is due today. On her I used a herf/angus/tarantaise Pharo composite bull to end up with about a 25% of each breed calf and she is carrying a heifer.


I looked at these 2 and 3 way Tarantaise based bulls Pharo offers and I could not understand what you would use them for. Perhaps a terminal cross on pure breds?

It did not look like there are many sold so others must be confused as well. Any tips here?

I used Buckaroo to try and get an even 4-way cross calf to experiment with is all I guess. We will find out what happens. Born today out of first calf heifer, 62.5lbs and running like the wind even in all this rain and mud. I also used him because of what PCC had to say about him, click on the link
http://www.pharocattle.com/Semen-Source ... posite.htm
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Re: 2way and 3waycross explained.

Postby dun » Thu Sep 29, 2011 6:05 pm

fitz wrote:
dun wrote:
fitz wrote:As you guys know by now I'm a little slow so clear the water for me.

I'm running simmental cows with an Angus Bull. I really like the heifers I'm getting. So, if I start retaining these heifers, transform my herd to this base of cow, the best way for me to go with them is back to a Simmental Bull?

fitz

Nope the best would be a third pure breed to be used on the F1 cows. That would be for terminal calves. That's always been one of the problems with crossbreeding is having a source for either good F1s or having to keep some purebred cows to be used to make those F1s


Thanks Dun & Alacowman. Would you have any suggestions for consideration. Guess I'd need to stay black to satisfy the market. He'd have to learn to live off fescue and stilt grass.

fitz

If you're looking for YG on the calves I would use Gelbvieh, for Quality grade one of the high grading Hereford bulls.
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Re: 2way and 3waycross explained.

Postby fitz » Thu Sep 29, 2011 6:46 pm

Thanks again Dun. I'll study on that Gelbvieh possibility.

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Re: 2way and 3waycross explained.

Postby VanC » Thu Sep 29, 2011 8:11 pm

I can't get the entire article to come up on my computer but what I can see seems to be about rotational crossbreeding. Some of you seem to be talking about a straight 3-breed cross, which is not the same thing as a 3-breed rotation.

As an example, a straight 3-breed cross would be when you have Hereford x Angus cows and you breed them to a Char bull, then repeat that every breeding season. Main problem is finding a source for replacements if you don't have the room to make them yourself.

In a 3-breed rotation you breed Hereford cows to an Angus bull. Those daughters are then bred to a Char bull, those daughters are bred back to a Hereford bull, those daughters are bred back to an Angus bull, those daughters are bred back to a Char bull and so on. The cows are always bred back to the bull that she is least related to by breed and once this gets going the heterosis stabilizes at about 86%. The main problem with this is you either need to use AI or you need to have 3 breeding pastures with a different breed of bull in each one. If you run the cows together you need to keep good records so you know the breed makeup of the cow so you know which breed of bull to breed her to. The good news is there will always be an ample supply of replacements on your own place so you don't need to look elsewhere for those.

A 2-breed rotation is the same only with 2 breeds instead of three. Hereford cows to an Angus bull. Those daughters are bred back to a Hereford bull. Those daughters are bred back to an Angus bull and so on. The heterosis will stabilize at about 66%. Again, there will always be a good supply of replacements without having to look elsewhere.
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Re: 2way and 3waycross explained.

Postby Keren » Thu Sep 29, 2011 9:31 pm

ANAZAZI wrote:
Keren wrote:
ANAZAZI wrote:May I just add that there is no more heterosis mating a crossbred bull A x B to a purebred cow C than to mate a bull A to a cow B.

The three way cross benefits occur only if the cow is crossbred! :2cents:

Why is that? Doesn't make logical sense to me. Granted I haven't read the link yet.


That is because heterosis is basically the benefits of non-homozygosity and that is achieved in the first cross. The point of threeway crosses is that the cow is crossbred, with all the positives from that, and the calf has the positives from it being crossbred. Of course a calf benefits from having a mother that is healthier, milk more and care a little more for it than a purebred cow would.

This is also why it does not matter in terms of heterosis if the calfs father is a crossbred or not.
However; crossbred bulls are negative for consistency in the calf crop in the same way crossbred cows are, but without the benefits.

Ah that makes perfect sense! Thanks for explaining that for me. Also for whoever said they haven't had a purebred outweigh a crossbred calf at weaning, I have. It just depends on good genetics be they in the purebred or crossbred herd
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Re: 2way and 3waycross explained.

Postby DOC HARRIS » Thu Sep 29, 2011 11:58 pm

[quote]"Also for whoever said they haven't had a purebred outweigh a crossbred calf at weaning, I have. It just depends on good genetics be they in the purebred or crossbred herd"[quote]

This quote by Keren covers the problem which has been threading itself throughout this entire discussion - which is - everyone who has interjected a post here has overlooked the one primary fact that is glaringly absent in all of the comments offered - and that is the importance of the genetic composition of the breeding individuals, WHATEVER particular breed they may happen to be!

Skimming through all of the comments expressed herein I have not found any deviation from the 'same old - same old' focusing on Phenotype traits, but ignoring genetic and functional traits and characteristics which every breeder must address in his particular herd makeup. Crossbreeding, of necessity, involves mating one, two, three, or more 'specific' breeds in the process of achieving progeny, but one CANNOT overlook the genetic composition of the individual cows and bulls.

Crossbreeding offers two primary advantages: heterosis (hybrid vigor) and the opportunity of breed complementarity! When the performance (NOT just what they look like - Phenotype) of crossbred offspring exceeds the performance of the purebred parents, the difference is called heterosis. The determination of those traits and characteristics comes from the accumulation and culmination of the genes provided by the bull and cow. The particular breed is of great importance, but the visual appraisal of the individuals must be enhanced by EPD's, and more recently the use of DNA has focused selection choices more specifically on accurate, dependable and predictable merit values of the individual breeding animals - rather than employing the time-worn rhetoric of "breed A is better? than breed H, or G, or S, or T, or any other choice of alphabetized talking points. "Better" is a vague, indeterminate and ambiguous description of an individual animal which signifys - not very much.

In your crossbreeding protocols, utilize specific breeds for specific 'heritability' factors. Reproductive traits will respond the most to crossbreeding - carcass traits the least.

Remember, in the final analysis, it's all in the 'Genes", not just in the "looks".

DOC HARRIS
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Re: 2way and 3waycross explained.

Postby ANAZAZI » Fri Sep 30, 2011 1:57 am

Keren wrote:
ANAZAZI wrote:
That is because heterosis is basically the benefits of non-homozygosity and that is achieved in the first cross. The point of threeway crosses is that the cow is crossbred, with all the positives from that, and the calf has the positives from it being crossbred. Of course a calf benefits from having a mother that is healthier, milk more and care a little more for it than a purebred cow would.

This is also why it does not matter in terms of heterosis if the calfs father is a crossbred or not.
However; crossbred bulls are negative for consistency in the calf crop in the same way crossbred cows are, but without the benefits.


Ah that makes perfect sense! Thanks for explaining that for me. Also for whoever said they haven't had a purebred outweigh a crossbred calf at weaning, I have. It just depends on good genetics be they in the purebred or crossbred herd

If the crossbred calvf and the purebred calf have the same sire, that tells you that one cow is so much better than the other that the heterosis is not obvious. Next year, change the bull so the good cow gets a crossbred calf and the bad cow gets a purebred. Trust me they will now show true difference.
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