2way and 3waycross explained.

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Re: 2way and 3waycross explained.

Postby 3waycross » Mon Feb 17, 2014 5:45 pm

avatar25 wrote:
3waycross wrote:
Till-Hill wrote:3way I think mostly because of having 4 breeds the consitancy gets lost a little bit. Kinda like these club calves. I am still pursueing making some 4way calves, will they be used as bulls? Time will tell. I think the females will make great cows and will more than likely mate them to F1 bulls......

On another note of crossbreeding doesn't consistancy get better when you use an F1 x F1, say a simangus x simangus? I am trying some of that too but it is hard when most of the half bloods are all related and I don't linebreed.......


What I was told on this is if you use a Balancer that is a GV/Angus cow then if you want to standardize the offspring a little more to go the other way with a Angus/GV bull. Just a theory based on anecdotal experience not empirical data. I am going to try it on some heifers that I am keeping this fall they are all 3 out of the Angus/GV cross and I will use semen from a GV/Angus Balancer bull on them. 2 are 3/4 sisters and the other is unrelated. So even tho it's a small group it will give me something to compare.



Not true. Has no genetic effect on variability of offspring


I didn't say it was. In fact I said it was all anecdotal but thanks for your input. I guess I just assumed that everyone knew what anecdotal means. Now if you have some Empirical data to support your statement I would love to see it. If not then I guess your statement is also anecdotal and not worth much more than mine. ;-)
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Re: 2way and 3waycross explained.

Postby double v » Tue Feb 18, 2014 11:39 am

Avatar what supporting data do you have, this info comes from the red angus association as an explanation of the benefits of the 3waycross and what you can gain. I would like to see were and what info you are using. Also can you give us a little info on you what you raise how many and so on. Thanks for sharing
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Re: 2way and 3waycross explained.

Postby Blonde d'Aquitaine » Sun Feb 23, 2014 11:39 am

We use in Germany Blonde d'Aquitaine for crossbreeding programs with Simmental and Limousine. based on the European carcasses evaluation is this a very good solution. Blonde d'Aquitaine has also good character and is easy calving. They work very good under tropical conditions, as you can see in the following pictures showing F1 Blonde X Brahman:
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For more information about Blonde d'Aquitaine please visit our website www.blonde-d-aurach.de
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Re: 2way and 3waycross explained.

Postby Blonde d'Aquitaine » Wed Feb 26, 2014 9:22 am

What about using Fullblood Homozygous Polled Blonde d'Aquitaine for terminal cross?. Here you can see a short video about a bull calf in Austria. http://bit.ly/Rainier-bull-calf
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Re: 2way and 3waycross explained.

Postby CKC1586 » Thu Feb 27, 2014 7:02 am

Blonde d'Aquitaine wrote:What about using Fullblood Homozygous Polled Blonde d'Aquitaine for terminal cross?. Here you can see a short video about a bull calf in Austria. http://bit.ly/Rainier-bull-calf

Nice looking young fella! Hopefully he will grow up to do a good job for you. :tiphat:
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Re: 2way and 3waycross explained.

Postby 3waycross » Thu Feb 27, 2014 10:51 am

Blonde d'Aquitaine wrote:What about using Fullblood Homozygous Polled Blonde d'Aquitaine for terminal cross?. Here you can see a short video about a bull calf in Austria. http://bit.ly/Rainier-bull-calf


This thread was started to help people understand the concept of crossbreeding to achieve hybred vigor. Not to be a place to advertise your breed.
We all know about Blonde's and what they can do.
Please stop advertising here
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Re: 2way and 3waycross explained.

Postby WalnutCrest » Tue Aug 05, 2014 12:20 am

If a two-way cross stabilizes at 66% heterosis ... and ... a three-way cross stabilizes at 83% heterosis ... does a four-way cross stabilize at about 90% and a five-way cross at about 94%?

In other words, is Nesikep's "perpetual cross" herd (i.e., an unbroken string of X number of new breeds of bulls) going to run close to 100% heterosis?

So, if maximizing your heterosis is the goal, one should look to bring in blood that is as unrelated as is reasonably possible to your existing herd ... while maintaining as consistent phenotype as possible ... right?
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Re: 2way and 3waycross explained.

Postby Nesikep » Tue Aug 05, 2014 1:56 am

I think that would depend a lot on how related the breeds are.. even though 'simangus' and 'simbrah' are considered breeds, I don't think you'd get as much heterosis by putting them over a simm cow, or not as much as herf x simm at least.

As for me, I do try for a consistent phenotype, though it's a bit of a moving goalpost.. I find strong points in different breeds, and perhaps when I'm a really old man I'll have the formula for what suits me nicely... One that I'm liking the results of so far is 1/4 Saler, 1/4 SH, and 1/2 Gelbvieh.. seems to produce a really good animal.. I have a Limo now, but until I see how the calves do (as cows) the jury is out.
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Re: 2way and 3waycross explained.

Postby WalnutCrest » Tue Aug 05, 2014 7:24 am

There is enough quality variation in all breeds that is difficult to be definitive on breed composition ... just pick the best bulls to use and keep the best, most fertile daughters.
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Re: 2way and 3waycross explained.

Postby Stocker Steve » Tue Aug 05, 2014 11:08 am

I have 2 put together cow herds in two different grazing cells now so I sort them:

The "farm team" gets a black terminal bulls. Two long black Limis out of Wulf bloodlines this year. No retained heifers. Most calves are Limi x English 2 way cross.

The "major league team" gets one round of AI and then balancer or limi flex clean up bulls. Some retained heifers. I have quite a few over the years and the most maternal ones tend to be herf or sh x balancer. Do you like this 3 way cross ?

It hurts a bit, but I have been AIing the 3 way heifers back to calving ease angus. Still a 3 way but now 5/8 angus...
Last edited by Stocker Steve on Tue Aug 05, 2014 11:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 2way and 3waycross explained.

Postby 3waycross » Tue Aug 05, 2014 11:15 am

Stocker Steve wrote:I have 2 put together cow herds in two different grazing cells now so I sort them:

The "farm team" gets a black terminal bulls. Two black Limis out of Wulf bloodlines this year. No retained heifers. Calves are Limi x English 2 way cross.

The "major league team" gets one round of AI and then balancer or limi flex clean up bulls. Some retained heifers. Most maternal ones tend to be herf or sh x balancer. Do you agree that this a good 3 way cross ?



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Re: 2way and 3waycross explained.

Postby Nesikep » Tue Aug 05, 2014 11:43 am

WalnutCrest wrote:There is enough quality variation in all breeds that is difficult to be definitive on breed composition ... just pick the best bulls to use and keep the best, most fertile daughters.

That's very true, and I try not to pass judgement on a breed from one bull, no matter how tempting that is!... The only thing that worries me a bit about my Limo is he's TALL, and the SH X cows are tall too, so I don't know what I'm going to end up with there... However, the bull's mother wasn't a massive cow so we'll just have to see.. At least he's got meat on his frame
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Re: 2way and 3waycross explained.

Postby Stocker Steve » Tue Aug 05, 2014 12:18 pm

WalnutCrest wrote:There is enough quality variation in all breeds that is difficult to be definitive on breed composition ...


When I was picking out my Limi bulls there was one in the pen that was obviously not as growthy. The breeder positioned him as "moderate frame".

So was he a good bull or not?
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Re: 2way and 3waycross explained.

Postby 3waycross » Tue Aug 05, 2014 1:03 pm

Stocker Steve wrote:
WalnutCrest wrote:There is enough quality variation in all breeds that is difficult to be definitive on breed composition ...


When I was picking out my Limi bulls there was one in the pen that was obviously not as growthy. The breeder positioned him as "moderate frame".

So was he a good bull or not?


To me, growthy is not how big he is but how fast he got that big.
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Re: 2way and 3waycross explained.

Postby WalnutCrest » Tue Aug 05, 2014 1:21 pm

3waycross wrote:
Stocker Steve wrote:
WalnutCrest wrote:There is enough quality variation in all breeds that is difficult to be definitive on breed composition ...


When I was picking out my Limi bulls there was one in the pen that was obviously not as growthy. The breeder positioned him as "moderate frame".

So was he a good bull or not?


To me, growthy is not how big he is but how fast he got that big.


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