Regulations killing business

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Bright Raven
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Re: Regulations killing business

Postby Bright Raven » Thu Jan 18, 2018 6:14 pm

boondocks wrote:
sim.-ang.king wrote:We wouldn't need gov. regulations if we had a more free market, and people were smart enough, and willing enough to stand up to companies that were doing things, like dumping sewage, and the like.
But everyone just wants stuff cheap, and easy. Why do you thing imports from China are so large? The stuff from China is cheap and easy to get.


Not sure I'm following. If there were no laws or regs on the books, what basis would people have to stand up against, for example, a company dumping hazardous waste? Do you think a company would just willingly say Sorry and stop? How could they, if their competitors are also polluting? You must have a much more favorable view of human nature than I do...

To CB: There were originally no environmental laws (and therefore no regs). The regs are the vehicle by which the laws are carried out. Do you really want a bunch of congress critters sitting around writing the regs themselves? (Actually, these days the industries themselves pretty much write the regs, and that's sadly true regardless of which party's in power).


I have been a member of a promulgation committee. That was in the 1980s. I was detailed from Casper, Wyoming to Washington, DC. We took formal comment from the public which included industries but the Office of Surface Mining wrote the final regulations pursuant to public comment and the authorizing statutes. When did industries start writing federal regulations? I just don't believe that would withstand legal challenge.

Regulations are not written by congressional critters. The committee I was on included Registered Professional Engineers, hydrologist, legal counsel, mining engineers, etc. I was selected as a Reclamation Specialist and because of my composition skills.
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Re: Regulations killing business

Postby zirlottkim » Thu Jan 18, 2018 7:29 pm

Raven quote: "I have been a member of a promulgation committee. That was in the 1980s. I was detailed from Casper, Wyoming to Washington, DC. We took formal comment from the public which included industries but the Office of Surface Mining wrote the final regulations pursuant to public comment and the authorizing statutes. When did industries start writing federal regulations? I just don't believe that would withstand legal challenge.

Regulations are not written by congressional critters. The committee I was on included Registered Professional Engineers, hydrologist, legal counsel, mining engineers, etc. I was selected as a Reclamation Specialist and because of my composition skills."

In the fishing industry, regulations are written by NMFS bureaucrats that promote their agenda. Which is their "need for more funding" to secure their jobs. If they do not max out their yearly budget, they may take a cut next. Also involved in making the regulations are Marine biologist, most of which have anti commercial fishing ideals. There are"public meetings" held to get "industry input" but that is only a formality. NEVER has a public meeting changed a regulation. Commercial fishing was for years basically self regulating. If a fishery is declining, the less productive boats can't turn a profit and will ,over time, be sold off or enter another fishery. The hard core best Captains keep struggling along, gain more market share and with less stress on the fishery, it turns profitable again. Once profitable again, more people enter the fishery and it starts all over. It's a vicious cycle that weeds out the least productive. With the exception of maybe a very select few species, no fishery can "catch all the fish" to extinction. It just is not possible. But that is not what the "textbooks" teach.
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Re: Regulations killing business

Postby Bright Raven » Thu Jan 18, 2018 7:42 pm

zirlottkim wrote:Raven quote: "I have been a member of a promulgation committee. That was in the 1980s. I was detailed from Casper, Wyoming to Washington, DC. We took formal comment from the public which included industries but the Office of Surface Mining wrote the final regulations pursuant to public comment and the authorizing statutes. When did industries start writing federal regulations? I just don't believe that would withstand legal challenge.

Regulations are not written by congressional critters. The committee I was on included Registered Professional Engineers, hydrologist, legal counsel, mining engineers, etc. I was selected as a Reclamation Specialist and because of my composition skills."

In the fishing industry, regulations are written by NMFS bureaucrats that promote their agenda. Which is their "need for more funding" to secure their jobs. If they do not max out their yearly budget, they may take a cut next. Also involved in making the regulations are Marine biologist, most of which have anti commercial fishing ideals. There are"public meetings" held to get "industry input" but that is only a formality. NEVER has a public meeting changed a regulation. Commercial fishing was for years basically self regulating. If a fishery is declining, the less productive boats can't turn a profit and will ,over time, be sold off or enter another fishery. The hard core best Captains keep struggling along, gain more market share and with less stress on the fishery, it turns profitable again. Once profitable again, more people enter the fishery and it starts all over. It's a vicious cycle that weeds out the least productive. With the exception of maybe a very select few species, no fishery can "catch all the fish" to extinction. It just is not possible. But that is not what the "textbooks" teach.


That is about what I said. Industry does not promulgate the rules that regulate them.

Regarding public comment - it rarely ever changes the draft proposed rule.
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Re: Regulations killing business

Postby True Grit Farms » Thu Jan 18, 2018 7:55 pm

You can go to any of the NMFS public hearings and after the meetings adjourn for the day, the council members are at the bar drinking with a couple of young floozies from the Pew foundation. I've seen them eating supper together, lucky them, but normally it doesn't work out so good for the fishermen.
We have created a couple of non profit organizations to represent the commercial fishing industry. It's worked out great for everyone besides the taxpayers, they are now footing all our legal bills. We have NMFS back peddling on the King Mackerel, Red snapper TAC. Our quotas increased by a third, hopefully change is finally coming to our industry.
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Re: Regulations killing business

Postby Bright Raven » Thu Jan 18, 2018 8:14 pm

True Grit Farms wrote:You can go to any of the NMFS public hearings and after the meetings adjourn for the day, the council members are at the bar drinking with a couple of young floozies from the Pew foundation. I've seen them eating supper together, lucky them, but normally it doesn't work out so good for the fishermen.


We took oral comment with a court reporter on duty. We also took written comment. All comments required a written published response in the Federal Register. We were not permitted to fraternize with anyone holding an interest in our final rules.
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Re: Regulations killing business

Postby zirlottkim » Thu Jan 18, 2018 8:56 pm

True Grit Farms wrote:You can go to any of the NMFS public hearings and after the meetings adjourn for the day, the council members are at the bar drinking with a couple of young floozies from the Pew foundation. I've seen them eating supper together, lucky them, but normally it doesn't work out so good for the fishermen.
We have created a couple of non profit organizations to represent the commercial fishing industry. It's worked out great for everyone besides the taxpayers, they are now footing all our legal bills. We have NMFS back peddling on the King Mackerel, Red snapper TAC. Our quotas increased by a third, hopefully change is finally coming to our industry.

Red Snapper is a perfect example of what I'm saying. Absolutely no regulating is needed for snapper. NONE. If any Tom, Dick or Harry with a boat could legally go offshore, catch snapper and sell them too, there would be such a glut on snapper that the public could eat it cheaper than beans. Then all these inshore, man made artificial reefs would get fished out within a year. The recreational snapper fishing fad would diminish somewhat. Then a commercial man, with some knowledge and drive could go offshore to 40 or 50 fathom and catch enough in winter when no one else want to fight it, and he could make a good living. NO REGULATIONS needed.
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Re: Regulations killing business

Postby True Grit Farms » Thu Jan 18, 2018 9:05 pm

Bright Raven wrote:
True Grit Farms wrote:You can go to any of the NMFS public hearings and after the meetings adjourn for the day, the council members are at the bar drinking with a couple of young floozies from the Pew foundation. I've seen them eating supper together, lucky them, but normally it doesn't work out so good for the fishermen.


We took oral comment with a court reporter on duty. We also took written comment. All comments required a written published response in the Federal Register. We were not permitted to fraternize with anyone holding an interest in our final rules.


I'll take your word for it cause I don't know anything about how the EPA works. I do know how the NMFS works. I use to attend every meeting and all the work shops, I was even on the advisory board. I've wasted a lot of time and money fighting for MY perceived rights through the years. Now I spend 5% of my yearly income fighting NMFS through the east coast fishermen's defense fund. The stress was killing me, and I was going to pass it along if I didn't quit.
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Re: Regulations killing business

Postby True Grit Farms » Thu Jan 18, 2018 9:12 pm

zirlottkim wrote:
True Grit Farms wrote:You can go to any of the NMFS public hearings and after the meetings adjourn for the day, the council members are at the bar drinking with a couple of young floozies from the Pew foundation. I've seen them eating supper together, lucky them, but normally it doesn't work out so good for the fishermen.
We have created a couple of non profit organizations to represent the commercial fishing industry. It's worked out great for everyone besides the taxpayers, they are now footing all our legal bills. We have NMFS back peddling on the King Mackerel, Red snapper TAC. Our quotas increased by a third, hopefully change is finally coming to our industry.

Red Snapper is a perfect example of what I'm saying. Absolutely no regulating is needed for snapper. NONE. If any Tom, Dick or Harry with a boat could legally go offshore, catch snapper and sell them too, there would be such a glut on snapper that the public could eat it cheaper than beans. Then all these inshore, man made artificial reefs would get fished out within a year. The recreational snapper fishing fad would diminish somewhat. Then a commercial man, with some knowledge and drive could go offshore to 40 or 50 fathom and catch enough in winter when no one else want to fight it, and he could make a good living. NO REGULATIONS needed.

It worked that way for years, till the government got involved to help us. I got a federal grant to shark fish in 1979, now the same sharks are on a 200 year recovery plan. NMFS is also back tracking on their scientific data on Sandbar sharks, we'll see how it all works out, it's starting to get interesting.
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Re: Regulations killing business

Postby sim.-ang.king » Thu Jan 18, 2018 10:12 pm

boondocks wrote:
sim.-ang.king wrote:We wouldn't need gov. regulations if we had a more free market, and people were smart enough, and willing enough to stand up to companies that were doing things, like dumping sewage, and the like.
But everyone just wants stuff cheap, and easy. Why do you thing imports from China are so large? The stuff from China is cheap and easy to get.


Not sure I'm following. If there were no laws or regs on the books, what basis would people have to stand up against, for example, a company dumping hazardous waste? Do you think a company would just willingly say Sorry and stop? How could they, if their competitors are also polluting? You must have a much more favorable view of human nature than I do...

To CB: There were originally no environmental laws (and therefore no regs). The regs are the vehicle by which the laws are carried out. Do you really want a bunch of congress critters sitting around writing the regs themselves? (Actually, these days the industries themselves pretty much write the regs, and that's sadly true regardless of which party's in power).


I wouldn't expect you to be able to fathom the idea of a true free market, nor 90% of the this countries citizen.



And that's the way the government wants it to stay...a content, fat pig, is a happy fat pig.
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Re: Regulations killing business

Postby boondocks » Fri Jan 19, 2018 1:22 am

Sim Ang, you didn't answer my question, but simply resorted to an old canard that a "true" free market will solve everything from bunions to how-do-I-always-end-up-with-single-socks. (Just like the socialists that think a "true" socialist system will solves all ills from, well, you know what to you know what). I think most people realize that we need to balance the rights and obligations of capital and labor, eg.

As for the folks who think that industries don't have a large say in the laws, rules and regs that are drafted, well, what on earth do you think all those millionaire lobbyists are doing?
And see, e.g. https://www.finra.org/industry/finra-rulemaking-process
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Re: Regulations killing business

Postby True Grit Farms » Fri Jan 19, 2018 3:51 am

boondocks wrote:Sim Ang, you didn't answer my question, but simply resorted to an old canard that a "true" free market will solve everything from bunions to how-do-I-always-end-up-with-single-socks. (Just like the socialists that think a "true" socialist system will solves all ills from, well, you know what to you know what). I think most people realize that we need to balance the rights and obligations of capital and labor, eg.

As for the folks who think that industries don't have a large say in the laws, rules and regs that are drafted, well, what on earth do you think all those millionaire lobbyists are doing?
And see, e.g. https://www.finra.org/industry/finra-rulemaking-process

Someone has to pay for slick willie's and barry's jet set lifestyle, their wemens eat like pigs.
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Re: Regulations killing business

Postby boondocks » Fri Jan 19, 2018 5:05 am

True Grit Farms wrote:
boondocks wrote:Sim Ang, you didn't answer my question, but simply resorted to an old canard that a "true" free market will solve everything from bunions to how-do-I-always-end-up-with-single-socks. (Just like the socialists that think a "true" socialist system will solves all ills from, well, you know what to you know what). I think most people realize that we need to balance the rights and obligations of capital and labor, eg.

As for the folks who think that industries don't have a large say in the laws, rules and regs that are drafted, well, what on earth do you think all those millionaire lobbyists are doing?
And see, e.g. https://www.finra.org/industry/finra-rulemaking-process

Someone has to pay for slick willie's and barry's jet set lifestyle, their wemens eat like pigs.

Who's the oinker? http://i.imgur.com/VT3oprI.jpg
or:
http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/OTUS/pho ... e-41274612
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Re: Regulations killing business

Postby Bright Raven » Fri Jan 19, 2018 6:45 am

boondocks wrote: As for the folks who think that industries don't have a large say in the laws, rules and regs that are drafted, well, what on earth do you think all those millionaire lobbyists are doing?

Federal Environmental Statutes/Laws are passed by a legislative body.  I will agree that legislators are lobbied but not just by industry.   Environmental interests have extremely powerful lobbies.  In fact, environmental groups influence environmental law more than industry.

This discussion began when Boondocks stated that "industries write regulations".

Federal Regulations/Rules are written by the agency that is designated in the legislative Statute/Act to promulgate the rules to implement the statute.

You can believe the moon is made of green cheese but it is an extremely monitored process subject to the Freedom of Information Act.

Rules/Regulations are written by a promulgation committee/council of agency and contract experts.  The agency that promulgates the Rules/Regulations is set forth by Congress in the Law/Statutes/Act passed by a legislative body.

The proposed rules are written and published in the Federal Register for public comment.  The comments are considered by the committee/council.  Changes are made to the proposed Rules/Regulations and they are published as Final Rules in the Federal Register.   With a date as to when they become effective.

I have served on a promulgation committee.  I can tell you environmental groups submit 20 times more comments than industry does.  I can tell you in the case of environmental law, the influence of environmental interests outweighs that of industry.   Believe whatever you desire!
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Re: Regulations killing business

Postby TennesseeTuxedo » Fri Jan 19, 2018 7:44 am

Bright Raven wrote:
boondocks wrote: As for the folks who think that industries don't have a large say in the laws, rules and regs that are drafted, well, what on earth do you think all those millionaire lobbyists are doing?

Federal Environmental Statutes/Laws are passed by a legislative body.  I will agree that legislators are lobbied but not just by industry.   Environmental interests have extremely powerful lobbies.  In fact, environmental groups influence environmental law more than industry.

This discussion began when Boondocks stated that "industries write regulations".

Federal Regulations/Rules are written by the agency that is designated in the legislative Statute/Act to promulgate the rules to implement the statute.

You can believe the moon is made of green cheese but it is an extremely monitored process subject to the Freedom of Information Act.

Rules/Regulations are written by a promulgation committee/council of agency and contract experts.  The agency that promulgates the Rules/Regulations is set forth by Congress in the Law/Statutes/Act passed by a legislative body.

The proposed rules are written and published in the Federal Register for public comment.  The comments are considered by the committee/council.  Changes are made to the proposed Rules/Regulations and they are published as Final Rules in the Federal Register.   With a date as to when they become effective.

I have served on a promulgation committee.  I can tell you environmental groups submit 20 times more comments than industry does.  I can tell you in the case of environmental law, the influence of environmental interests outweighs that of industry.   Believe whatever you desire!


I absolutely believe the tree hugging Eco-nuts lean heavily on those trying to craft sound environmental policy.
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Re: Regulations killing business

Postby True Grit Farms » Fri Jan 19, 2018 8:01 am

boondocks wrote:
True Grit Farms wrote:
boondocks wrote:Sim Ang, you didn't answer my question, but simply resorted to an old canard that a "true" free market will solve everything from bunions to how-do-I-always-end-up-with-single-socks. (Just like the socialists that think a "true" socialist system will solves all ills from, well, you know what to you know what). I think most people realize that we need to balance the rights and obligations of capital and labor, eg.

As for the folks who think that industries don't have a large say in the laws, rules and regs that are drafted, well, what on earth do you think all those millionaire lobbyists are doing?
And see, e.g. https://www.finra.org/industry/finra-rulemaking-process

Someone has to pay for slick willie's and barry's jet set lifestyle, their wemens eat like pigs.

Who's the oinker? http://i.imgur.com/VT3oprI.jpg

Your picture is like comparing an apple to a banana. My picture is unbiased, unlike the fake news some post.
Image
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