Another school shooting

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Bestoutwest
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Re: Another school shooting

Postby Bestoutwest » Sun Feb 18, 2018 11:07 am

True Grit Farms wrote:
Bright Raven wrote:
dieselbeef wrote:....why do we need a trial or keep him in prison...


His crimes are heinous.

I would answer your question thusly:

Because we are a nation that honors the rule of law and the Constitution of the United States guarantees him the same rights we all enjoy.

When was the Constitution changed? Cold blooded murderers we killed in the old days, along with cattle and horse thieves. The problem started around the turn of the century when there became to many Lawyers. You must be a real low life scum bag to agree to represent someone like this kid. If Lawyers had any code of ethics no one would agree to represent this murderer.
Greybeard, there's a big difference in killing and murder, which I'm sure you know.

You cannot believe in the Constitution and question why anyone would represent him. Like you believe in the right to bear arms, others believe in the right to a fair legal trial. I am one of them. And it’s rather hypocritical to pick and chose which amendments you believe in. The Constitution is an all or nothing deal.
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Re: Another school shooting

Postby True Grit Farms » Sun Feb 18, 2018 11:30 am

Bestoutwest wrote:
True Grit Farms wrote:
Bright Raven wrote:
His crimes are heinous.

I would answer your question thusly:

Because we are a nation that honors the rule of law and the Constitution of the United States guarantees him the same rights we all enjoy.

When was the Constitution changed? Cold blooded murderers we killed in the old days, along with cattle and horse thieves. The problem started around the turn of the century when there became to many Lawyers. You must be a real low life scum bag to agree to represent someone like this kid. If Lawyers had any code of ethics no one would agree to represent this murderer.
Greybeard, there's a big difference in killing and murder, which I'm sure you know.

You cannot believe in the Constitution and question why anyone would represent him. Like you believe in the right to bear arms, others believe in the right to a fair legal trial. I am one of them. And it’s rather hypocritical to pick and chose which amendments you believe in. The Constitution is an all or nothing deal.

THE BILL OF RIGHTS – FULL TEXT
Amendment I
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

Amendment II
A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.

Amendment III
No soldier shall, in time of peace be quartered in any house, without the consent of the owner, nor in time of war, but in a manner to be prescribed by law.

Amendment IV
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

Amendment V
No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a grand jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the militia, when in actual service in time of war or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.

Amendment VI
In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the state and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the assistance of counsel for his defense.

Amendment VII
In suits at common law, where the value in controversy shall exceed twenty dollars, the right of trial by jury shall be preserved, and no fact tried by a jury, shall be otherwise reexamined in any court of the United States, than according to the rules of the common law.

Amendment VIII
Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted.

Amendment IX
The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.

Amendment X
The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people.

I see nothing in the original Constitution that mentions Lawyers must represent him. He can stand in front of his peers and be judged. I'm all for a speedy trial, these families are suffering and the sooner this murderer is dealt with the better.
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Re: Another school shooting

Postby hurleyjd » Sun Feb 18, 2018 12:12 pm

In 1959 Was the year I turned 18. Never was threatened, but for my protection I had a piece of multi strand telephone wire about 20 inches long and 1.0 inch in diameter that I had stuck under the car seat. Never had a need to use it. Never thought if I pulled it the adversary could take it away from me and beat me with it. Also at that time you could not legally carry a pistol here in Texas. Shotgun hunting rifle no problem in the vehicle or else where. Now days you never know when the person in the next car is offended by your driving and will pull his pistol and start shooting. Also when did the idea come from that You might need a weapon to keep the government at bay. I have seen it happen several times and the swat team is called out and the protector is dead. I think that I lived in a safer time when younger. I do own some guns but do not hunt or really have a need for them. Some are keepsakes and others are from my younger years. On magazine capacity if I go hunting with the shot gun it has to be plugged for only three shells bird hunting and hunting that requires the use of the shotgun. Now If I owned a assault type rifle and go deer hunting I can have 30 shell capacity magazine. Probable never get more than two shots off before deer is out of sight. This by chance will come across as me being a liberal crazy snowflake but that is me and I am proud of it.. Also what would the FBI do in the case of the shooter. Go to his house and question him after all he has rights guaranteed by the constitution that is as important as the second amendment. Not much can be done before the crime only after. Talk to the law officers you know about this.
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Re: Another school shooting

Postby Bestoutwest » Sun Feb 18, 2018 12:17 pm

True Grit Farms wrote:
Bestoutwest wrote:
True Grit Farms wrote:When was the Constitution changed? Cold blooded murderers we killed in the old days, along with cattle and horse thieves. The problem started around the turn of the century when there became to many Lawyers. You must be a real low life scum bag to agree to represent someone like this kid. If Lawyers had any code of ethics no one would agree to represent this murderer.
Greybeard, there's a big difference in killing and murder, which I'm sure you know.

You cannot believe in the Constitution and question why anyone would represent him. Like you believe in the right to bear arms, others believe in the right to a fair legal trial. I am one of them. And it’s rather hypocritical to pick and chose which amendments you believe in. The Constitution is an all or nothing deal.

THE BILL OF RIGHTS – FULL TEXT
Amendment I
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

Amendment II
A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.

Amendment III
No soldier shall, in time of peace be quartered in any house, without the consent of the owner, nor in time of war, but in a manner to be prescribed by law.

Amendment IV
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

Amendment V
No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a grand jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the militia, when in actual service in time of war or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.

Amendment VI
In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the state and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the assistance of counsel for his defense.

Amendment VII
In suits at common law, where the value in controversy shall exceed twenty dollars, the right of trial by jury shall be preserved, and no fact tried by a jury, shall be otherwise reexamined in any court of the United States, than according to the rules of the common law.

Amendment VIII
Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted.

Amendment IX
The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.

Amendment X
The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people.

I see nothing in the original Constitution that mentions Lawyers must represent him. He can stand in front of his peers and be judged. I'm all for a speedy trial, these families are suffering and the sooner this murderer is dealt with the better.


Read Article VI again.
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Re: Another school shooting

Postby True Grit Farms » Sun Feb 18, 2018 12:47 pm

and to have the assistance of counsel for his defense.
Counsel? Nothing there says that the people have to supply you a Lawyer, or that a Lawyer has to give counsel. A judge always ask if you understand the charges brought against you, then the amended parts of the Constitution by Lawyers starts. You've been brain washed into thinking what the Lawyers want you to think.
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Re: Another school shooting

Postby Bestoutwest » Sun Feb 18, 2018 12:53 pm

True Grit Farms wrote:and to have the assistance of counsel for his defense.
Counsel? Nothing there says that the people have to supply you a Lawyer, or that a Lawyer has to give counsel. A judge always ask if you understand the charges brought against you, then the amended parts of the Constitution by Lawyers starts. You've been brain washed into thinking what the Lawyers want you to think.


I love how you go to “brain washed.” If this young man DOESN’T get help from a lawyer, or that lawyer is incompetent, he has a high chance of winning his appeals, which surely will be filed. Quality legal representation is a must, and has been shown to be a mitigating factor in appellate court.
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Re: Another school shooting

Postby Bright Raven » Sun Feb 18, 2018 12:55 pm

True Grit Farms wrote:and to have the assistance of counsel for his defense.
Counsel? Nothing there says that the people have to supply you a Lawyer, or that a Lawyer has to give counsel. A judge always ask if you understand the charges brought against you, then the amended parts of the Constitution by Lawyers starts. You've been brain washed into thinking what the Lawyers want you to think.


Grit are you making a joke? Lawyer/counsel/solicitor/attorney etc etc are all the same profession.

When the Constitution uses counsel it means you have the right to be represented by an attorney or whatever you choose to call it.
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Re: Another school shooting

Postby Son of Butch » Sun Feb 18, 2018 1:55 pm

haase wrote:Don't really think the potus can solve this problem, it goes a lot further than him, what did the potus in 1999 do
after the columbine shootings.

These things can't be stopped from federal level or mandate, it's all lip service.
Oprah did a show after Columbine and everyone agreed with her killing is bad (there outta be a law)

Solution has to come from grassroots local level when issues appear.
I saw an interview with one of his classmates that seemed to get to the root... that kid said
"I can't believe he was able to buy a AR15 anyone that talked to him for 5 minutes could tell he was nuts."
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Re: Another school shooting

Postby TexasBred » Sun Feb 18, 2018 2:41 pm

True Grit Farms wrote:and to have the assistance of counsel for his defense.
Counsel? Nothing there says that the people have to supply you a Lawyer, or that a Lawyer has to give counsel. A judge always ask if you understand the charges brought against you, then the amended parts of the Constitution by Lawyers starts. You've been brain washed into thinking what the Lawyers want you to think.

A criminal defendant's right to an attorney is found in the Sixth Amendment to the U.S. Constitution, which requires the "assistance of counsel" for the accused "in all criminal prosecutions." This means that a defendant has a constitutional right to be represented by an attorney during trial. It also means that if the defendant cannot afford an attorney, in almost all instances the government will appoint one to handle the case, at no cost to the defendant (this began in 1963 when the Supreme Court ruled in favor of an indigent defendant facing the possibility of incarceration).

Keep in mind that, while the right to counsel is discussed here in connection with a criminal trial, a suspect has the right to a lawyer at almost every important phase of the criminal process, typically from arrest through the first appeal after conviction. For instance, criminal suspects have the right to ask for an attorney and remain silent if they are being interrogated by police.
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Re: Another school shooting

Postby TexasBred » Sun Feb 18, 2018 2:42 pm

True Grit Farms wrote:and to have the assistance of counsel for his defense.
Counsel? Nothing there says that the people have to supply you a Lawyer, or that a Lawyer has to give counsel. A judge always ask if you understand the charges brought against you, then the amended parts of the Constitution by Lawyers starts. You've been brain washed into thinking what the Lawyers want you to think.

Sorry Grit but you're 100% wrong. You also have no license to practice law.
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Re: Another school shooting

Postby Son of Butch » Sun Feb 18, 2018 2:54 pm

The kid's attorney has offered the state to forego the expense and emotional turmoil of a trial he/kid would agree to
plead guilty if the state would agree to a life sentence and not seek the death penalty.
State prosecutor (grand standing for political gain IMO) appears to have turned it down, his 1st reaction was No and
followed by a speech.

FACT:
As of 1/1/18 there are 2,186 death row inmates in the USA awaiting execution.
2016 - 20 were executed all males,2 black, 2 hispanic, 16 white
2017 - 23
ytd 3

At that rate it will take 130 years to execute the 2,186 already on death row
In 1973 there were 134 inmates on death row (because they kept the line moving)
36 states currently have the death penalty, but seems there are only 3 or 4 with the balls to follow through.

Florida has 374 on death row and they average executing 1 per year
Prosecutor should accept the plea deal of life without parole to save everyone the time and money rather than playing
around for his own personal gain.
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Re: Another school shooting

Postby Bright Raven » Sun Feb 18, 2018 3:33 pm

TexasBred wrote:
True Grit Farms wrote:and to have the assistance of counsel for his defense.
Counsel? Nothing there says that the people have to supply you a Lawyer, or that a Lawyer has to give counsel. A judge always ask if you understand the charges brought against you, then the amended parts of the Constitution by Lawyers starts. You've been brain washed into thinking what the Lawyers want you to think.

Sorry Grit but you're 100% wrong. You also have no license to practice law.


License to practice Law!!! That scares me to death. I can understand that he may have slept through Government Class. But you would think he would know more than he does from watching the news and old reruns of Perry Mason.

:hide:
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Re: Another school shooting

Postby True Grit Farms » Sun Feb 18, 2018 4:28 pm

A guidance counselor is a Lawyer and gives guidance, a marriage counselor is not a Lawyer either and both counsel people. You don't need to be a Lawyer to counsel. I must not understand the definition of counsel, your thinking like the Lawyers want you to think.
The state should check with the victims family before the state agrees to anything. This can become a big deal in a hurry, McVeigh only killed 168 and destroyed millions because of the government's abuse of power.
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Re: Another school shooting

Postby greybeard » Sun Feb 18, 2018 4:30 pm

I would only clarify that its a touch over generalized. We, as men, are killers by instinct. I do not agree that the females of our species are killers by instinct. Their instinct is to nurture, not kill.

Nurturing is but one of their instincts. Males also have other instincts but females of our species also possess the instinct to kill just as much as any other predator on this Earth.
I mean no offense in using the word 'predator' but mankind (male & female alike) is top of the food chain predator by any true definition of the world.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_w ... _rebellion

Look too, at the number of female royalty and female tyrants thru out history that have plunged their nations in to war.
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Re: Another school shooting

Postby True Grit Farms » Sun Feb 18, 2018 4:32 pm

Bright Raven wrote:
TexasBred wrote:
True Grit Farms wrote:and to have the assistance of counsel for his defense.
Counsel? Nothing there says that the people have to supply you a Lawyer, or that a Lawyer has to give counsel. A judge always ask if you understand the charges brought against you, then the amended parts of the Constitution by Lawyers starts. You've been brain washed into thinking what the Lawyers want you to think.

Sorry Grit but you're 100% wrong. You also have no license to practice law.


License to practice Law!!! That scares me to death. I can understand that he may have slept through Government Class. But you would think he would know more than he does from watching the news and old reruns of Perry Mason.

:hide:

I don't know anything about anything, but I can read and look up the meaning of a word. Comprehension is and has always been my problem, because I can think for myself.
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