MLV Vaccines

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wbvs58
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Re: MLV Vaccines

Postby wbvs58 » Mon Nov 06, 2017 4:21 pm

True Grit Farms wrote:
Bright Raven wrote:
True Grit Farms wrote:Why risk using a MLV? I've seen nothing but the down sides of using MLV, including some deformed calves. And yes I know a MLV doesn't cause deformities in calves supposedly. But once we stopped using MLV we haven't had another deformed calf. I'll use redneck logic myself around here and never use a MLV again. This will probably come back to bite me, but we vaccinate with Calvary 9 or Covexin 8 with tetanus and Triangle 10. I can count the number of sick calves or cows we've had on one hand. I'll leave the sick cows to those that like to doctor and pet them.....hopefully.


Actually, your logic is fine. If I where you, I would be more concerned that Triangle 10 does not include the Leptospira borgpetersenii serovar Hardjo Bovis (HD) than not using an MLV. Leptospirosis is caused primarily by the HD serovar and Georgia has if I remember correctly a high incidence of HD leptospirosis.

Leptospirosis is primarily a problem a dairy might in counter. Leptospirosis is very rare to nonexistent in beef cattle in Georgia or anywhere else for that matter. The vets are pushing drugs the same as doctors, for kick backs.
"The vaccine is cheap enough you might as well give it" I've heard that more than once. We have Dr Lee Jones from UGA coming out Thursday great guy and great teacher, but a drug pusher all the same. I don't think pumping cattle full of vaccines is helping anything but making more problems down the road. The more we use the more they'll make, it's a big business after all.


Drug companies have never been my favourite people. They have too much of a vested interest to come up with correct results in their trials.

Ken
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Re: MLV Vaccines

Postby Bright Raven » Mon Nov 06, 2017 4:31 pm

wbvs58 wrote:
True Grit Farms wrote:
Bright Raven wrote:
Actually, your logic is fine. If I where you, I would be more concerned that Triangle 10 does not include the Leptospira borgpetersenii serovar Hardjo Bovis (HD) than not using an MLV. Leptospirosis is caused primarily by the HD serovar and Georgia has if I remember correctly a high incidence of HD leptospirosis.

Leptospirosis is primarily a problem a dairy might in counter. Leptospirosis is very rare to nonexistent in beef cattle in Georgia or anywhere else for that matter. The vets are pushing drugs the same as doctors, for kick backs.
"The vaccine is cheap enough you might as well give it" I've heard that more than once. We have Dr Lee Jones from UGA coming out Thursday great guy and great teacher, but a drug pusher all the same. I don't think pumping cattle full of vaccines is helping anything but making more problems down the road. The more we use the more they'll make, it's a big business after all.


Drug companies have never been my favourite people. They have too much of a vested interest to come up with correct results in their trials.

Ken


Watch out!!!  My son and daughter-in-law both work for drug companies.
:mad:
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Re: MLV Vaccines

Postby True Grit Farms » Mon Nov 06, 2017 4:41 pm

Diagnosis is difficult at best. There are a large number of common diseases that result in abortion or infertility in cattle. Some of these conditions are BVD, IBR, Neospora, EBA (foothill abortion), Campylobacter, Trichomonosis, selenium deficiency, just to name some of the more common causes. Additionally, a definitive diagnosis of leptospirosis is difficult due to the fastidious nature of the organism and the fact that the bovine fetus dies well before the time it is expelled during abortion. The aborted fetus is characteristically autolysed, icteric, and edematous at presentation. There is often pneumonia, placentitis, and renal tubular necrosis. Occasionally, the leptospires can be demonstrated in the fetal tissues (kidney) by sliver stains, or fluorescent antibody techniques. Once in a while, the leptospires can be cultured—but this is an unusual situation. Diagnosis is usually based on serologic data and the elimination of other causes. Titers to Leptospira pomona may be greater than 1:12,800 in affected cows; however, titers to Leptospira hardjo-prajitno rarely exceed 1:3200 in cows that have aborted. While acute and convalescent sera are preferable samples, it is often difficult to accomplish in the practical setting.

What does this mean to you Raven? To me it sounds like they don't really know what caused the abortion, but they can spit numbers out to make it look like there's a problem caused by lepto. The fact is my neighbors that do nothing for their cows have about the same number of problems as we do...little to none. I try to sell my neighbors on Covexin 8 or Calvary 9 for black leg, but they say why, we've never had any problems.
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Re: MLV Vaccines

Postby Lucky_P » Mon Nov 06, 2017 6:47 pm

Definitive diagnosis for abortion/stillbirth workups is LOW... maybe 25% of them, we come up with a plausible explanation... and that includes dystocias... but I only get placenta in maybe 10% of those cases... and of those with placenta submitted, 50% or more have a placental lesion - and NOTHING in the fetus. So... if all I get is fetus(no placenta, no maternal serum)... I know that the likelihood that I'm gonna make a definitive diagnosis is pretty danged low - so... I approach them with the thought of 'ruling out' the things that the producer and veterinarian can likely do anything about.

We very rarely diagnose Leptospira abortions here in western KY. Can't recall the last one I saw... more likely here to see Lepto manifested as weak calves that die 7-10 days out. BUT! with Lepto hardjo-bovis, it's not a late-term abortion deal, it's an early embryonic death... cows/heifers just keep re-cycling on a regular 17-23 day cycle... eventually, after 3-4 cycles or more, they'll probably stick and carry to term, but if you've got a 45 or 60 day breeding period... they're gonna come up open.

When the first HB vaccines came out, I was, like, "That's a vaccine looking for a disease." I didn't believe it was necessary.
However, I've changed my tune. I do think it's out there in a lot of beef herds...pretty sure I had it.
Proving it is hard to do and expensive... easier and cheaper just to vaccinate and move on.
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Re: MLV Vaccines

Postby Bright Raven » Mon Nov 06, 2017 6:58 pm

True Grit Farms wrote:Diagnosis is difficult at best. There are a large number of common diseases that result in abortion or infertility in cattle. Some of these conditions are BVD, IBR, Neospora, EBA (foothill abortion), Campylobacter, Trichomonosis, selenium deficiency, just to name some of the more common causes. Additionally, a definitive diagnosis of leptospirosis is difficult due to the fastidious nature of the organism and the fact that the bovine fetus dies well before the time it is expelled during abortion. The aborted fetus is characteristically autolysed, icteric, and edematous at presentation. There is often pneumonia, placentitis, and renal tubular necrosis. Occasionally, the leptospires can be demonstrated in the fetal tissues (kidney) by sliver stains, or fluorescent antibody techniques. Once in a while, the leptospires can be cultured—but this is an unusual situation. Diagnosis is usually based on serologic data and the elimination of other causes. Titers to Leptospira pomona may be greater than 1:12,800 in affected cows; however, titers to Leptospira hardjo-prajitno rarely exceed 1:3200 in cows that have aborted. While acute and convalescent sera are preferable samples, it is often difficult to accomplish in the practical setting.

What does this mean to you Raven? To me it sounds like they don't really know what caused the abortion, but they can spit numbers out to make it look like there's a problem caused by lepto. The fact is my neighbors that do nothing for their cows have about the same number of problems as we do...little to none. I try to sell my neighbors on Covexin 8 or Calvary 9 for black leg, but they say why, we've never had any problems.


It says this: "There are a large number of common diseases that result in abortion or infertility in cattle. Some of these conditions are BVD, IBR, Neospora, EBA (foothill abortion), Campylobacter, Trichomonosis, selenium deficiency..."  Another is Leptospira.  Particularly,  the Hardjo and Pomona serovars and more recently discovered, the Hardjo-bovis serovar.

Regarding your neighbor,  who cares what he does?  His cows, his risk, his decision.  Same goes for any producer.  I see the same thing here.  But I also know many of these producers drag a lot of dead animals to the back pastures.  Adrian Craig has 300 cows.  Operates within a hoot and a holler from me.  He freely admits he is willing to take a 10 % loss in animals per annum.  His cows take care of themselves.  He cannot find them half the time.

The anecdotal evidence that your neighbor does just fine without vaccination provides very little useful information IMO.
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Re: MLV Vaccines

Postby Bright Raven » Mon Nov 06, 2017 7:19 pm

Lucky_P wrote: BUT! with hardjo-bovis, it's not a late-term abortion deal, it's an early embryonic death... cows/heifers just keep re-cycling on a regular 17-23 day cycle... eventually, after 3-4 cycles or more, they'll probably stick and carry to term, but if you've got a 45 or 60 day breeding period... they're gonna come up open.

When the first HB vaccines came out, I was, like, "That's a vaccine looking for a disease." I didn't believe it was necessary.
However, I've changed my tune. I do think it's out there in a lot of beef herds...pretty sure I had it.


Right there is why I have been insistent in advising others to make sure their pentavalent lepto vaccine covers HB.
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Re: MLV Vaccines

Postby True Grit Farms » Mon Nov 06, 2017 7:27 pm

It was neighbors plural. I definitely have a different management and marketing style. But their calf survival results are not much different than mine. No vaccinations, no mineral and no problems. Sometimes I think we're being sold a bill of goods by a bunch of highly educated veterinarian salesmen. I'm willing to bet that they'll find another strain or something else that needs to be vaccinated for before long...it's their job.
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Re: MLV Vaccines

Postby Bright Raven » Mon Nov 06, 2017 7:29 pm

True Grit Farms wrote:It was neighbors plural. I definitely have a different management and marketing style. But their calf survival results are not much different than mine. No vaccinations, no mineral and no problems. Sometimes I think we're being sold a bill of goods by a bunch of highly educated veterinarian salesmen. I'm willing to bet that they'll find another strain or something else that needs to be vaccinated for before long...it's their job.


You sure are a cynical old bird. Lol
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Re: MLV Vaccines

Postby True Grit Farms » Mon Nov 06, 2017 7:31 pm

Bright Raven wrote:
Lucky_P wrote: BUT! with hardjo-bovis, it's not a late-term abortion deal, it's an early embryonic death... cows/heifers just keep re-cycling on a regular 17-23 day cycle... eventually, after 3-4 cycles or more, they'll probably stick and carry to term, but if you've got a 45 or 60 day breeding period... they're gonna come up open.

When the first HB vaccines came out, I was, like, "That's a vaccine looking for a disease." I didn't believe it was necessary.
However, I've changed my tune. I do think it's out there in a lot of beef herds...pretty sure I had it.


Right there is why I have been insistent in advising others to make sure their pentavalent lepto vaccine covers HB.


https://www.valleyvet.com/ct_detail.htm ... gJQ4_D_BwE
Is this the same kind of HB as in a MLV?
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Re: MLV Vaccines

Postby Bright Raven » Mon Nov 06, 2017 7:35 pm

True Grit Farms wrote:
Bright Raven wrote:
Lucky_P wrote: BUT! with hardjo-bovis, it's not a late-term abortion deal, it's an early embryonic death... cows/heifers just keep re-cycling on a regular 17-23 day cycle... eventually, after 3-4 cycles or more, they'll probably stick and carry to term, but if you've got a 45 or 60 day breeding period... they're gonna come up open.

When the first HB vaccines came out, I was, like, "That's a vaccine looking for a disease." I didn't believe it was necessary.
However, I've changed my tune. I do think it's out there in a lot of beef herds...pretty sure I had it.


Right there is why I have been insistent in advising others to make sure their pentavalent lepto vaccine covers HB.


https://www.valleyvet.com/ct_detail.htm ... gJQ4_D_BwE
Is this the same kind of HB as in a MLV?


That covers the HB that is in Bovi Shield Gold FP 5 L5 HB. Yes.
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Re: MLV Vaccines

Postby Davemk » Mon Nov 06, 2017 9:18 pm

I use Triangle 10 HB and Vision 7 with spur.
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Re: MLV Vaccines

Postby Cucumber35 » Tue Nov 07, 2017 5:59 am

True Grit beat me to it but i was going to say, the newest version of Triangle 10 includes the HB. Which is also what we use. I give it to everything even steers. Obviously they don’t need all that it provides but when they are going down the chute its easier for us with our size herd to give everything the same. We have a fairly wide calving period and I don’t feel the MLV benefit is worth the risk. Knock on wood we don’t have issues with sick cattle using the Triangle 10 HB.
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Re: MLV Vaccines

Postby Bright Raven » Tue Nov 07, 2017 6:21 am

Cucumber35 wrote:True Grit beat me to it but i was going to say, the newest version of Triangle 10 includes the HB. Which is also what we use. I give it to everything even steers. Obviously they don’t need all that it provides but when they are going down the chute its easier for us with our size herd to give everything the same. We have a fairly wide calving period and I don’t feel the MLV benefit is worth the risk. Knock on wood we don’t have issues with sick cattle using the Triangle 10 HB.


Sounds fine. I am not saying you have to use a MLV preparation for the FP 5 viruses. My main intention was to address the misinformation that causes the hypertension over the words Modified Live Virus.

The killed or attenuated preparations have been demonstrated to provide immunity if properly administered.

Triangle 10 HB includes the killed FP5 viruses and the 5 lepto bacteria in a bacterin preparation. The HB serovar is included.
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