Pushing calves

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Jeanne - Simme Valley
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Re: Pushing calves

Postby Jeanne - Simme Valley » Fri Feb 02, 2018 5:46 pm

I don't think I need to warn you, but don't let them show any fat pockets. Watch your udders on those heifers. Every cell in the udder that develops fat in it, will NEVER produce milk. You can easily ruin them to being good cows.
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Re: Pushing calves

Postby Bright Raven » Fri Feb 02, 2018 5:52 pm

Jeanne - Simme Valley wrote:I don't think I need to warn you, but don't let them show any fat pockets. Watch your udders on those heifers. Every cell in the udder that develops fat in it, will NEVER produce milk. You can easily ruin them to being good cows.


Jeanne,

I am watching. There are 9 bulls and 5 heifers. The bulls eat more. So far the heifers are not showing too much fat.

These are Sept/October calves. Do you think 5 pounds might be too much?
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Re: Pushing calves

Postby wbvs58 » Fri Feb 02, 2018 8:08 pm

TennesseeTuxedo wrote:Pampered babies.


I wouldn't say pampered, just domesticated to a bit higher extent. I think cattle lend themselves to being domesticated very well, in many countries they are part of the family.

I don't think it hurts them and to keep them going forward is important when selling them at 13-15mths for breeding. I am trying to get people to buy my bulls at 13mths as opposed to traditionally at 2 yrs, very hard to change habits but benefits all round.

They do look good Ron.

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Re: Pushing calves

Postby NonTypicalCPA » Fri Feb 02, 2018 8:20 pm

Thanks for the diagram! But being a cpa I’d have numbered mine - makes more sense. :)

Is it much trouble getting the halters on? Or are they packed pretty tight in the sweep?
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Re: Pushing calves

Postby Bright Raven » Fri Feb 02, 2018 8:23 pm

NonTypicalCPA wrote:Thanks for the diagram! But being a cpa I’d have numbered mine - makes more sense. :)

Is it much trouble getting the halters on? Or are they packed pretty tight in the sweep?


No problem. First 3 or 4 times maybe, now, it is easy. Halter training is easy. Leading is what separates the men from the boys.
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Re: Pushing calves

Postby Jeanne - Simme Valley » Fri Feb 02, 2018 9:29 pm

IMO - you are max-ing out what you want them to be eating. You said not showing "too much" fat. To me, any fat "showing" is too much. I like my girls bred before they should "show" any fat. Once they are bred, they will never put fat in their milk cells. There is always a fine line in raising heifers to their potential growth and future production.
I like to win - I LOVE to win - but, not if I may damage their future as a cow. Unlike what many think, "show" cattle can and should make great pasture cows.
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Re: Pushing calves

Postby gcreekrch » Fri Feb 02, 2018 9:43 pm

Ron, in all seriousness and respect, wouldn't creep feeding skew growth EPD's on the maternal end of things?
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Re: Pushing calves

Postby Bright Raven » Fri Feb 02, 2018 10:39 pm

gcreekrch wrote:Ron, in all seriousness and respect, wouldn't creep feeding skew growth EPD's on the maternal end of things?


I suppose it would. Weaning weights and yearling weights are going to be higher.
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Re: Pushing calves

Postby Bright Raven » Fri Feb 02, 2018 10:43 pm

Jeanne - Simme Valley wrote:I don't think I need to warn you, but don't let them show any fat pockets. Watch your udders on those heifers. Every cell in the udder that develops fat in it, will NEVER produce milk. You can easily ruin them to being good cows.


Jeanne,

You might find this amusing. After reading this, I went out at dusk and did some assessment. At this point, I don't feel any fat in the udder of the heifer calves and they are actually lean. The bull calves are the ones that have more evidence of fat deposits.
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Re: Pushing calves

Postby wbvs58 » Sat Feb 03, 2018 4:15 am

Bright Raven wrote:
gcreekrch wrote:Ron, in all seriousness and respect, wouldn't creep feeding skew growth EPD's on the maternal end of things?


I suppose it would. Weaning weights and yearling weights are going to be higher.


I suspect your EPD's are calculated similar to our EBV's and what is compared is their ranking only within that management group in your herd not the absolute value, the link between herds is through sires that you use that are used in other herds. Genomics is good as it links between herds and I think is of big benefit in a small herd such as mine.

I suspect you may not record information on the weaning weight Ron as you do not have a set of scales???? I know that ABRI over here at the University of New England does the work for a couple of the smaller breed societies from the US maintaining database and doing the calculations, they are a pretty good outfit, at the top of their game. Do you know if they do the work for your Simmental Association????

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Re: Pushing calves

Postby Bright Raven » Sat Feb 03, 2018 7:05 am

wbvs58 wrote:
Bright Raven wrote:
gcreekrch wrote:Ron, in all seriousness and respect, wouldn't creep feeding skew growth EPD's on the maternal end of things?


I suppose it would. Weaning weights and yearling weights are going to be higher.


I suspect your EPD's are calculated similar to our EBV's and what is compared is their ranking only within that management group in your herd not the absolute value, the link between herds is through sires that you use that are used in other herds. Genomics is good as it links between herds and I think is of big benefit in a small herd such as mine.

I suspect you may not record information on the weaning weight Ron as you do not have a set of scales???? I know that ABRI over here at the University of New England does the work for a couple of the smaller breed societies from the US maintaining database and doing the calculations, they are a pretty good outfit, at the top of their game. Do you know if they do the work for your Simmental Association????

Ken


You're correct. I don't report WW or YW because I don't have a scales. I report BW only.

I don't know who does the data calculations for ASA.
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Re: Pushing calves

Postby angus9259 » Sat Feb 03, 2018 8:17 am

Jeanne - Simme Valley wrote:I don't think I need to warn you, but don't let them show any fat pockets. Watch your udders on those heifers. Every cell in the udder that develops fat in it, will NEVER produce milk. You can easily ruin them to being good cows.


I fall calve and creep feed oats. I am very concerned about calves getting "fat" as I do like to keep some for breeding. As you know in your climate, it can be tough for a calf to keep growing in a fall calving northern climate (an obvious drawback to fall calving in a northern climate i realize!!) but they do risk getting fat also. That's why I use oats instead of corn for example.

That said, I was under the impression that the fat in the udder thing was a post puberty issue. What I mean by that is that if you get the grain away from them once they are 5-6 months old, the likelihood of fat deposition in the udder is small as most of that occurs in their "puberty" time 7 months to a year for example. Never seen any science on that but what I was led to believe by local folk lore.
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Re: Pushing calves

Postby Bright Raven » Sat Feb 03, 2018 8:41 am

angus9259 wrote:I fall calve and creep feed oats. I am very concerned about calves getting "fat" as I do like to keep some for breeding. As you know in your climate, it can be tough for a calf to keep growing in a fall calving northern climate (an obvious drawback to fall calving in a northern climate i realize!!) but they do risk getting fat also. That's why I use oats instead of corn for example.

That said, I was under the impression that the fat in the udder thing was a post puberty issue. What I mean by that is that if you get the grain away from them once they are 5-6 months old, the likelihood of fat deposition in the udder is small as most of that occurs in their "puberty" time 7 months to a year for example. Never seen any science on that but what I was led to believe by local folk lore.


I am seeing better development, not fat.

Edited to add: The UK professor who advocates early exposure of calves to solid feed said the key is advancing the development of their rumen. Thus, when they eat hay, they start sooner and process more and better.
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Re: Pushing calves

Postby Jeanne - Simme Valley » Sat Feb 03, 2018 11:17 am

Angus - yes, you are correct. Once the heifer is BRED, there is no longer an issue. And OATS, is a super safe "grain". It is more like feeding good hay. I mix my corn with whole oats for that very reason. But, in my head (not sure is it is correct or not) I feel they get more "heat" from eating corn than oats. May totally be an old wife's tale.
I think hay is the best "heater" for cattle.
And yes, in our climate, I totally agree with helping feed the calves with creep. It is much cheaper and more efficient to feed the calf extra than to try to feed the cow better to keep her body weight. I feed my fall calving cows separate from my spring (winter) calving cows. The two groups are never together until summer grazing.
And, Ron, I think you may be carrying the professors lecture a little further than he intended. It is extremely important to have early exposure of calves to solid feed to advance the development of their rumen. BUT, your calves as well as mine have access to hay along side their dams. That is as much exposure as they need for developing their rumen. This is more TexasBred's expertise, but I believe I am right about that.
Beef calves are not raised like dairy calves (years ago). Beef calves eat grass or hay almost from day one. I see it all the time, along side of their dam.
But, Ron, I see nothing wrong with you feeding your calves like you are doing - just WATCH them and don't get "barn blind". Fat is beautiful (in cattle), but it can be detrimental. I don't know the ramifications of an over-fat young, developing bull, but I would guess it is not good either.
I'm just saying, don't get carried away.
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Re: Pushing calves

Postby Bright Raven » Sat Feb 03, 2018 12:10 pm

Jeanne - Simme Valley wrote:Angus - yes, you are correct. Once the heifer is BRED, there is no longer an issue. And OATS, is a super safe "grain". It is more like feeding good hay. I mix my corn with whole oats for that very reason. But, in my head (not sure is it is correct or not) I feel they get more "heat" from eating corn than oats. May totally be an old wife's tale.
I think hay is the best "heater" for cattle.
And yes, in our climate, I totally agree with helping feed the calves with creep. It is much cheaper and more efficient to feed the calf extra than to try to feed the cow better to keep her body weight. I feed my fall calving cows separate from my spring (winter) calving cows. The two groups are never together until summer grazing.
And, Ron, I think you may be carrying the professors lecture a little further than he intended. It is extremely important to have early exposure of calves to solid feed to advance the development of their rumen. BUT, your calves as well as mine have access to hay along side their dams. That is as much exposure as they need for developing their rumen. This is more TexasBred's expertise, but I believe I am right about that.
Beef calves are not raised like dairy calves (years ago). Beef calves eat grass or hay almost from day one. I see it all the time, along side of their dam.
But, Ron, I see nothing wrong with you feeding your calves like you are doing - just WATCH them and don't get "barn blind". Fat is beautiful (in cattle), but it can be detrimental. I don't know the ramifications of an over-fat young, developing bull, but I would guess it is not good either.
I'm just saying, don't get carried away.


Thanks. I will follow that advice.

I will look up the professor's name. He has specialized in rumen development. He had slides demonstrating the development of the rumen in calves. As you say, their rumen develops from an early age by ingesting grass and hay. He suggested a good calf feed because it accelerates the development. I will find some of his work and post a link. An interesting note was "water". He advocated providing free water that young calves can access. According to him, water also plays a role in rumen development!
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