Don't dismiss those Pour On Parasiticides

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Re: Don't dismiss those Pour On Parasiticides

Postby Dempster » Tue Apr 03, 2018 12:07 am

The generic injectable ivermectin should not be completely dismissed. It does not reach the efficacy levels of brand name products, but is an economically justifiable choice in some instances, particularly for use on adult cows where large doses are needed and parasites levels are lower. If there was a metric that rated a products efficacy against its cost, I don't think anything would beat out generic injectable ivermectin. However, resistance concerns could be raised in some circumstances.
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Re: Don't dismiss those Pour On Parasiticides

Postby Bright Raven » Tue Apr 03, 2018 6:26 am

Dempster wrote:The generic injectable ivermectin should not be completely dismissed. It does not reach the efficacy levels of brand name products, but is an economically justifiable choice in some instances, particularly for use on adult cows where large doses are needed and parasites levels are lower. If there was a metric that rated a products efficacy against its cost, I don't think anything would beat out generic injectable ivermectin. However, resistance concerns could be raised in some circumstances.


That is a lonely position to stand on. At least based on the history of discussions on Cattle Today. Ivermectin even in the name brand form is accountable for a large degree of the resistance in helminths. Not just because of its use in cattle but because it has been used as a topical anthelmintic in dogs and cats for 40 years. Pet owners are notorious for poor administration.

Having said that, it is a point worth considering. I think I would stick with the Ivomec Ivermectin injectable.
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Re: Don't dismiss those Pour On Parasiticides

Postby Dempster » Tue Apr 03, 2018 7:59 am

There are huge numbers of cattle dewormed every year in situations that do not require consideration of possible resistance. I think in those cases, it doesnt matter what negative effects have been seen otherwise from using generic products. Additionally, I must admit, I have never considered the susceptibility profile of canine helminths when selecting a deworming protocol for my cow herd.
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Re: Don't dismiss those Pour On Parasiticides

Postby Bright Raven » Tue Apr 03, 2018 8:51 am

Dempster wrote:There are huge numbers of cattle dewormed every year in situations that do not require consideration of possible resistance. I think in those cases, it doesnt matter what negative effects have been seen otherwise from using generic products. Additionally, I must admit, I have never considered the susceptibility profile of canine helminths when selecting a deworming protocol for my cow herd.


The point on canine helminth resistance is an extraneous comment. Just a data point that Ivermectin resistance is building.

Curious as to what situations do not require consideration of resistance. Organisms at the lower levels of the animal kingdom evolve faster as the generation cycles are shorter. As long as producers continue to expose helminths to levels of treatment that do not achieve a good kill, more helminth species are going to evolve resistance. When would you not consider resistance?
Last edited by Bright Raven on Tue Apr 03, 2018 9:00 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Don't dismiss those Pour On Parasiticides

Postby dieselbeef » Tue Apr 03, 2018 9:00 am

so I just got in here but this is a totally preventative deal right. im asking is anyone actually testing their cows for worms..or flukes ..or any other type of parasite...

cuz ive been butchering my own animals for 20 yrs and have neve found a fluke or worm in any of them ever..and both myself and my butcher check them at that time....

so are we worming as a pm program..like a 7 way or blackleg? or just because everyone thinks they have worms and so they do it?
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Re: Don't dismiss those Pour On Parasiticides

Postby Bright Raven » Tue Apr 03, 2018 9:02 am

dieselbeef wrote:so I just got in here but this is a totally preventative deal right. im asking is anyone actually testing their cows for worms..or flukes ..or any other type of parasite...

cuz ive been butchering my own animals for 20 yrs and have neve found a fluke or worm in any of them ever..and both myself and my butcher check them at that time....

so are we worming as a pm program..like a 7 way or blackleg? or just because everyone thinks they have worms and so they do it?


I suppose some may be worming as a preventative but most are treating. I have taken a couple fecal samples and they did show low levels of eggs.
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Re: Don't dismiss those Pour On Parasiticides

Postby greybeard » Tue Apr 03, 2018 9:13 am

I always just assume mine to have worms, the level of the load being the subjective and influencing factor of when to de-worm..
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Re: Don't dismiss those Pour On Parasiticides

Postby True Grit Farms » Tue Apr 03, 2018 9:19 am

Bright Raven wrote:
dieselbeef wrote:so I just got in here but this is a totally preventative deal right. im asking is anyone actually testing their cows for worms..or flukes ..or any other type of parasite...

cuz ive been butchering my own animals for 20 yrs and have neve found a fluke or worm in any of them ever..and both myself and my butcher check them at that time....

so are we worming as a pm program..like a 7 way or blackleg? or just because everyone thinks they have worms and so they do it?


I suppose some may be worming as a preventative but most are treating. I have taken a couple fecal samples and they did show low levels of eggs.


I'm surprised you have worms, maybe if you used a white paste or Cydectin injectable your cattle would be worm free?
Supposedly not grazing your grass short prevents the cows from getting worms. And pasture rotation after worming plays a major roll also. Personally I can't see following a herd of cows around and waiting for a cow to poop, then scooping it up and recording who pooped and then having the poop checked for worms. To me its easier and more efficient to treat them all or just the one's that look like they need it.
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Re: Don't dismiss those Pour On Parasiticides

Postby M-5 » Tue Apr 03, 2018 9:24 am

its a fine line , Killing everything might help the animal but it hurts your soil.

As many have said before we should be concentrating on farming our grass and forage not just treating animals because some nitwit looks at a sample under a microscope and says you need it.
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Re: Don't dismiss those Pour On Parasiticides

Postby Dogs and Cows » Tue Apr 03, 2018 10:15 am

I'll chime in here...and ad my thoughts. I try to manage my cows and land such that I don't have to worm every year and it has worked. Of course I don't do fecal counts, but I am going by the way the cows look. I will be worming this spring. I don't read many magazines, but I did pick up a mag called the Professional Rancher or some such title. As I paged through and put it down...one thing stuck with me. A guy could go broke if he did all the vaccinations, worming, various treatments, equipment, etc. for his cattle. It is unbelievable. It amazes me how any animal can survive without our intervention LOL! Anyway, my point is that everyone should be doing what works for them. I for one think if you can rotate pastures and keep cows off of pastures that look like felt you can go without worming spring and fall. This spring I feel I have a few that need wormed, so I will go ahead and hit the whole group...its been 2 yrs for me. Does that make me a bad animal manager? I don't think so. One thing I have learned on this site and others from some of you crusty old bastards (and I mean that in the most reverent way!) is to make the cattle work for you and not the other way around. Heck, I'd be doing well if I could solve this black vulture problem. Anyway, this has been a good thread and I think I have learned quite a few things! Thanks all!

Tim
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Re: Don't dismiss those Pour On Parasiticides

Postby Bright Raven » Tue Apr 03, 2018 11:02 am

M-5 wrote:its a fine line , Killing everything might help the animal but it hurts your soil.

As many have said before we should be concentrating on farming our grass and forage not just treating animals because some nitwit looks at a sample under a microscope and says you need it.


Darryl,

It has nothing that I can think of to do with the soil. I am only guessing you mean soil nematodes. They are unrelated to parasitic bovine helminths that live off the cows system. Most in the GI tract. Killing the intestinal nematodes has no effect on or loss of benefit to the soil.

If you mean something else, I am anxious to learn.
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Re: Don't dismiss those Pour On Parasiticides

Postby Bright Raven » Tue Apr 03, 2018 11:05 am

True Grit Farms wrote:
Bright Raven wrote:
dieselbeef wrote:so I just got in here but this is a totally preventative deal right. im asking is anyone actually testing their cows for worms..or flukes ..or any other type of parasite...

cuz ive been butchering my own animals for 20 yrs and have neve found a fluke or worm in any of them ever..and both myself and my butcher check them at that time....

so are we worming as a pm program..like a 7 way or blackleg? or just because everyone thinks they have worms and so they do it?


I suppose some may be worming as a preventative but most are treating. I have taken a couple fecal samples and they did show low levels of eggs.


I'm surprised you have worms, maybe if you used a white paste or Cydectin injectable your cattle would be worm free?
Supposedly not grazing your grass short prevents the cows from getting worms. And pasture rotation after worming plays a major roll also. Personally I can't see following a herd of cows around and waiting for a cow to poop, then scooping it up and recording who pooped and then having the poop checked for worms. To me its easier and more efficient to treat them all or just the one's that look like they need it.


I don't think it is possible to eliminate helminthic parasites in cattle. The first deer that crosses your farm, starts the cycle all over again.

BTW: all you do for fecal samples is get a spoon full from several cow 'pies'. Put it in a zip lock and take it to the vet. I don't label it to a specific cow.

The couple times I took fecal samples was when I was actually concerned about coccidiosis not worms.
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Re: Don't dismiss those Pour On Parasiticides

Postby M-5 » Tue Apr 03, 2018 11:47 am

Bright Raven wrote:
M-5 wrote:its a fine line , Killing everything might help the animal but it hurts your soil.

As many have said before we should be concentrating on farming our grass and forage not just treating animals because some nitwit looks at a sample under a microscope and says you need it.


Darryl,

It has nothing that I can think of to do with the soil. I am only guessing you mean soil nematodes. They are unrelated to parasitic bovine helminths that live off the cows system. Most in the GI tract. Killing the intestinal nematodes has no effect on or loss of benefit to the soil.

If you mean something else, I am anxious to learn.


Surely you've done your reasearch on benefits of a healthy dung beetle population and how thier larve feed on the parasites you are killing.
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Re: Don't dismiss those Pour On Parasiticides

Postby Bright Raven » Tue Apr 03, 2018 11:48 am

M-5 wrote:
Bright Raven wrote:
M-5 wrote:its a fine line , Killing everything might help the animal but it hurts your soil.

As many have said before we should be concentrating on farming our grass and forage not just treating animals because some nitwit looks at a sample under a microscope and says you need it.


Darryl,

It has nothing that I can think of to do with the soil. I am only guessing you mean soil nematodes. They are unrelated to parasitic bovine helminths that live off the cows system. Most in the GI tract. Killing the intestinal nematodes has no effect on or loss of benefit to the soil.

If you mean something else, I am anxious to learn.


Surely you've done your reasearch on benefits of a healthy dung beetle population and how thier larve feed on the parasites you are killing.


Yeah
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Re: Don't dismiss those Pour On Parasiticides

Postby M-5 » Tue Apr 03, 2018 11:56 am

Bright Raven wrote:
M-5 wrote:
Bright Raven wrote:
Darryl,

It has nothing that I can think of to do with the soil. I am only guessing you mean soil nematodes. They are unrelated to parasitic bovine helminths that live off the cows system. Most in the GI tract. Killing the intestinal nematodes has no effect on or loss of benefit to the soil.

If you mean something else, I am anxious to learn.


Surely you've done your reasearch on benefits of a healthy dung beetle population and how thier larve feed on the parasites you are killing.


Yeah

Is that a yeah you have done reasearch or a yeah you don't believe good soil health has anything to do with it and a strategic balance between herd health and pasture health is needed to optimize potential on both fronts.


I guess a guy selling wormer would give a crap about killing beetles.
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