Don't dismiss those Pour On Parasiticides

Cattle problems.
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Re: Don't dismiss those Pour On Parasiticides

Postby Bright Raven » Tue Apr 03, 2018 12:04 pm

M-5 wrote:
Bright Raven wrote:
M-5 wrote:
Surely you've done your reasearch on benefits of a healthy dung beetle population and how thier larve feed on the parasites you are killing.


Yeah

Is that a yeah you have done reasearch or a yeah you don't believe good soil health has anything to do with it and a strategic balance between herd health and pasture health is needed to optimize potential on both fronts.


I guess a guy selling wormer would give a crap about killing beetles.


It is yeah, as in I read your post.
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Re: Don't dismiss those Pour On Parasiticides

Postby Dogs and Cows » Tue Apr 03, 2018 12:11 pm

M-5 wrote:
Bright Raven wrote:
M-5 wrote:its a fine line , Killing everything might help the animal but it hurts your soil.

As many have said before we should be concentrating on farming our grass and forage not just treating animals because some nitwit looks at a sample under a microscope and says you need it.


Darryl,

It has nothing that I can think of to do with the soil. I am only guessing you mean soil nematodes. They are unrelated to parasitic bovine helminths that live off the cows system. Most in the GI tract. Killing the intestinal nematodes has no effect on or loss of benefit to the soil.

If you mean something else, I am anxious to learn.


Surely you've done your reasearch on benefits of a healthy dung beetle population and how thier larve feed on the parasites you are killing.


I will say this M5...you are spot on with the dung beetles...I have not given any wormer since I moved 2 years ago to this new farm. The first year there were no signs of beetle activity...this past year there were signs and I am already seeing them this spring. It sure is a fine line between cattle and pasture LOL! I do believe there are wormers (maybe safe-guard) that don't hurt the beetles, if I remember correctly.

Tim
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Re: Don't dismiss those Pour On Parasiticides

Postby M-5 » Tue Apr 03, 2018 12:17 pm

Bright Raven wrote:
M-5 wrote:
Bright Raven wrote:
Yeah

Is that a yeah you have done reasearch or a yeah you don't believe good soil health has anything to do with it and a strategic balance between herd health and pasture health is needed to optimize potential on both fronts.


I guess a guy selling wormer would give a crap about killing beetles.


It is yeah, as in I read your post.


SO , Whats the verdict ?? Do I need to look up studies that show the same drugs you are using to kill parasites kill the beetles that kill the parasite you are trying to kill ??

Ive never said don't use wormer . I use it some but I try and find a balance and practice rotation that helps my operation and a healthy ecosystem is far more beneficial.
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Re: Don't dismiss those Pour On Parasiticides

Postby M-5 » Tue Apr 03, 2018 12:23 pm

Dogs and Cows wrote:
M-5 wrote:
Bright Raven wrote:
Darryl,

It has nothing that I can think of to do with the soil. I am only guessing you mean soil nematodes. They are unrelated to parasitic bovine helminths that live off the cows system. Most in the GI tract. Killing the intestinal nematodes has no effect on or loss of benefit to the soil.

If you mean something else, I am anxious to learn.


Surely you've done your reasearch on benefits of a healthy dung beetle population and how thier larve feed on the parasites you are killing.


I will say this M5...you are spot on with the dung beetles...I have not given any wormer since I moved 2 years ago to this new farm. The first year there were no signs of beetle activity...this past year there were signs and I am already seeing them this spring. It sure is a fine line between cattle and pasture LOL! I do believe there are wormers (maybe safe-guard) that don't hurt the beetles, if I remember correctly.

Tim


correct, mectin base are the ones that kill the beetles. How in the HeII did cattle survive before these scientist decided that nature could not handle things on its own. Im all for new and improved ways but to bite hook line and sinker that this is the only way gets you caught with your pants down,.
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Re: Don't dismiss those Pour On Parasiticides

Postby Bright Raven » Tue Apr 03, 2018 12:29 pm

M-5 wrote:
Bright Raven wrote:
M-5 wrote:Is that a yeah you have done reasearch or a yeah you don't believe good soil health has anything to do with it and a strategic balance between herd health and pasture health is needed to optimize potential on both fronts.


I guess a guy selling wormer would give a crap about killing beetles.


It is yeah, as in I read your post.


SO , Whats the verdict ?? Do I need to look up studies that show the same drugs you are using to kill parasites kill the beetles that kill the parasite you are trying to kill ??

Ive never said don't use wormer . I use it some but I try and find a balance and practice rotation that helps my operation and a healthy ecosystem is far more beneficial.


I have a healthy skepticism of the dung beetle/bovine parasiticide relationship. Anthelminthics like Ivermectin can act on the metabolism of all invertebrates, not just helminths. Dung beetle larvae feed on manure. There is virtually no parasiticide in the manure. There are several other issues that don't suggest a connection on the dung beetle/bovine parasiticide relationship.

I think you have been drinking some of that 'tree hugger' cool aid.
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Re: Don't dismiss those Pour On Parasiticides

Postby M-5 » Tue Apr 03, 2018 12:42 pm

Bright Raven wrote:
M-5 wrote:
Bright Raven wrote:
It is yeah, as in I read your post.


SO , Whats the verdict ?? Do I need to look up studies that show the same drugs you are using to kill parasites kill the beetles that kill the parasite you are trying to kill ??

Ive never said don't use wormer . I use it some but I try and find a balance and practice rotation that helps my operation and a healthy ecosystem is far more beneficial.


I have a healthy skepticism of the dung beetle/bovine parasiticide relationship. Anthelminthics like Ivermectin can act on the metabolism of all invertebrates, not just helminths. Dung beetle larvae feed on manure. There is virtually no parasiticide in the manure. There are several other issues that don't suggest a connection on the dung beetle/bovine parasiticide relationship.

I think you have been drinking some of that 'tree hugger' cool aid.


There are plenty of publications on it but the reason people are skeptical is because there is no money in it like there is in the wormer business. I guess I will try and get a number for you too some Phd that has done research on it so you can pester him like you have this poor pouron salesman which led to you making a thread to help him sell more product.
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Re: Don't dismiss those Pour On Parasiticides

Postby Ebenezer » Tue Apr 03, 2018 12:45 pm

How in the HeII did cattle survive before these scientist decided that nature could not handle things on its own.
Wormy ones died. Ones with less or no worms lived.
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Re: Don't dismiss those Pour On Parasiticides

Postby TennesseeTuxedo » Tue Apr 03, 2018 12:48 pm

Ebenezer wrote:
How in the HeII did cattle survive before these scientist decided that nature could not handle things on its own.
Wormy ones died. Ones with less or no worms lived.


Yup.
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Re: Don't dismiss those Pour On Parasiticides

Postby Dempster » Tue Apr 03, 2018 12:51 pm

Bright Raven wrote:
Dempster wrote:There are huge numbers of cattle dewormed every year in situations that do not require consideration of possible resistance. I think in those cases, it doesnt matter what negative effects have been seen otherwise from using generic products. Additionally, I must admit, I have never considered the susceptibility profile of canine helminths when selecting a deworming protocol for my cow herd.


The point on canine helminth resistance is an extraneous comment. Just a data point that Ivermectin resistance is building.

Curious as to what situations do not require consideration of resistance. Organisms at the lower levels of the animal kingdom evolve faster as the generation cycles are shorter. As long as producers continue to expose helminths to levels of treatment that do not achieve a good kill, more helminth species are going to evolve resistance. When would you not consider resistance?


So the major place resistance is not an issue is dry lots. Obviously most beef calves in the US end up in a feed lot eventually and once they are there, whatever parasites are inside of them have hit a dead end. You can treat those calves with everything and create super parasites, but the parasites will never have a chance to reproduce so the risk of breeding resistant parasites isn't there. If I was finishing calves or fattening cull cows, I would certainly at least consider using a generic ivermectin, especially at lower beef prices.
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Re: Don't dismiss those Pour On Parasiticides

Postby M-5 » Tue Apr 03, 2018 12:55 pm

Bright Raven wrote:[ .
. Dung beetle larvae feed on manure. There is virtually no parasiticide in the manure.


So tell me how the mectin wormers kill the dung beetle if there are no parasiticides in the manure ??
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Re: Don't dismiss those Pour On Parasiticides

Postby Dempster » Tue Apr 03, 2018 1:00 pm

Avermectins are excreted in the manure and can affect dung beetle performance.
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Re: Don't dismiss those Pour On Parasiticides

Postby Bright Raven » Tue Apr 03, 2018 1:04 pm

M-5 wrote:
Bright Raven wrote:
M-5 wrote:
SO , Whats the verdict ?? Do I need to look up studies that show the same drugs you are using to kill parasites kill the beetles that kill the parasite you are trying to kill ??

Ive never said don't use wormer . I use it some but I try and find a balance and practice rotation that helps my operation and a healthy ecosystem is far more beneficial.


I have a healthy skepticism of the dung beetle/bovine parasiticide relationship. Anthelminthics like Ivermectin can act on the metabolism of all invertebrates, not just helminths. Dung beetle larvae feed on manure. There is virtually no parasiticide in the manure. There are several other issues that don't suggest a connection on the dung beetle/bovine parasiticide relationship.

I think you have been drinking some of that 'tree hugger' cool aid.


There are plenty of publications on it but the reason people are skeptical is because there is no money in it like there is in the wormer business. I guess I will try and get a number for you too some Phd that has done research on it so you can pester him like you have this poor pouron salesman which led to you making a thread to help him sell more product.


There are publications that also show better weight gains particularly on feeders that are on a regular parasiticide protocol.
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Re: Don't dismiss those Pour On Parasiticides

Postby Bright Raven » Tue Apr 03, 2018 1:06 pm

Dempster wrote:
Bright Raven wrote:
Dempster wrote:There are huge numbers of cattle dewormed every year in situations that do not require consideration of possible resistance. I think in those cases, it doesnt matter what negative effects have been seen otherwise from using generic products. Additionally, I must admit, I have never considered the susceptibility profile of canine helminths when selecting a deworming protocol for my cow herd.


The point on canine helminth resistance is an extraneous comment. Just a data point that Ivermectin resistance is building.

Curious as to what situations do not require consideration of resistance. Organisms at the lower levels of the animal kingdom evolve faster as the generation cycles are shorter. As long as producers continue to expose helminths to levels of treatment that do not achieve a good kill, more helminth species are going to evolve resistance. When would you not consider resistance?


So the major place resistance is not an issue is dry lots. Obviously most beef calves in the US end up in a feed lot eventually and once they are there, whatever parasites are inside of them have hit a dead end. You can treat those calves with everything and create super parasites, but the parasites will never have a chance to reproduce so the risk of breeding resistant parasites isn't there. If I was finishing calves or fattening cull cows, I would certainly at least consider using a generic ivermectin, especially at lower beef prices.


Thank you. That is a good point. In those circumstances using the generic makes good sense.
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Re: Don't dismiss those Pour On Parasiticides

Postby Bright Raven » Tue Apr 03, 2018 1:10 pm

Dempster wrote:Avermectins are excreted in the manure and can affect dung beetle performance.


Most organic compounds are processed in the liver and excreted in the urine. Have you found any convincing research that you believe supports a significant adverse effect on dung beetle viability?
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Re: Don't dismiss those Pour On Parasiticides

Postby M-5 » Tue Apr 03, 2018 1:31 pm

Bright Raven wrote:
M-5 wrote:
Bright Raven wrote:
I have a healthy skepticism of the dung beetle/bovine parasiticide relationship. Anthelminthics like Ivermectin can act on the metabolism of all invertebrates, not just helminths. Dung beetle larvae feed on manure. There is virtually no parasiticide in the manure. There are several other issues that don't suggest a connection on the dung beetle/bovine parasiticide relationship.

I think you have been drinking some of that 'tree hugger' cool aid.


There are plenty of publications on it but the reason people are skeptical is because there is no money in it like there is in the wormer business. I guess I will try and get a number for you too some Phd that has done research on it so you can pester him like you have this poor pouron salesman which led to you making a thread to help him sell more product.




There are publications that also show better weight gains particularly on feeders that are on a regular parasiticide protocol.


Im not disputing that. I've stated I worm calves They don't have the resistance cows do. What a feed lot does after they get my calves doesn't matter to and certain drenchs don't effect the Beetles. And there are publications on that too but they are not done by Wormer Salesman .
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