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dun
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Postby dun » Thu May 12, 2005 9:26 am

Unless there was a gene mutation, one of the parents was black.
If both the bull and the cow have a red gene, (heterozygous black) they could have a red calf.

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Postby txag » Thu May 12, 2005 9:34 am

dun wrote:Unless there was a gene mutation, one of the parents was black.
If both the bull and the cow have a red gene, (heterozygous black) they could have a red calf.

dun


correct. there's a 25% chance that two black animals (if both are heterozygous) will produce a red offspring.

as has been said before, without a mutation, two reds will never produce a black. i don't know the exact percentages, but it is very, very, very rare for the color genes to mutate. the recessive gene for horns mutates at a much higher rate so occasionally two horned animals will produce a polled animal.
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Postby flaboy » Thu May 12, 2005 9:41 am

txag wrote:
dun wrote:Unless there was a gene mutation, one of the parents was black.
If both the bull and the cow have a red gene, (heterozygous black) they could have a red calf.

dun


correct. there's a 25% chance that two black animals (if both are heterozygous) will produce a red offspring.

as has been said before, without a mutation, two reds will never produce a black. i don't know the exact percentages, but it is very, very, very rare for the color genes to mutate. the recessive gene for horns mutates at a much higher rate so occasionally two horned animals will produce a polled animal.


We are going to check it out. The picture I was shown of the sire of my bull was red. I really don't want to argue about this. I just want to understand. Could be they showed me the wrong picture or could be they grabbed the wrong straw...
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Postby dun » Thu May 12, 2005 9:43 am

flaboy wrote:
txag wrote:
dun wrote:Unless there was a gene mutation, one of the parents was black.
If both the bull and the cow have a red gene, (heterozygous black) they could have a red calf.

dun


correct. there's a 25% chance that two black animals (if both are heterozygous) will produce a red offspring.

as has been said before, without a mutation, two reds will never produce a black. i don't know the exact percentages, but it is very, very, very rare for the color genes to mutate. the recessive gene for horns mutates at a much higher rate so occasionally two horned animals will produce a polled animal.


We are going to check it out. The picture I was shown of the sire of my bull was red. I really don't want to argue about this. I just want to understand. Could be they showed me the wrong picture or could be they grabbed the wrong straw...


In one of the semen catalogs there is black I think Simmenthal or Gelbvieh bull that everytime I see it I think he's red. But he's supposedly homo black.

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Postby flaboy » Thu May 12, 2005 9:51 am

Could be why my bull is Cat II with 100% RA huh? Marked down because he was black? Who would have ever thought you would get bad marks for being black?

In one of the semen catalogs there is black I think Simmenthal or Gelbvieh bull that everytime I see it I think he's red. But he's supposedly homo black.

dun[/quote]
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Postby certherfbeef » Thu May 12, 2005 9:53 am

Not to beat a dead horse here but... I think I have the horned/polled thing figgered out.
On to color:
I have a red bull calf out of a blk simmy bull and herf cow. So that calf does not carry a blk gene? And will not throw a blk calf when bred to a baldie cow?

And a blk heifer calf out of a blue roan shorty and a herf cow. Only way to get her to throw a blk calf is to use a homo blk bull?

What if I use the above mentioned bull on the above mentioned heifer???
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Postby txag » Thu May 12, 2005 10:13 am

certherfbeef wrote:Not to beat a dead horse here but... I think I have the horned/polled thing figgered out.
On to color:
I have a red bull calf out of a blk simmy bull and herf cow. So that calf does not carry a blk gene? And will not throw a blk calf when bred to a baldie cow?


the red bull calf does not carry a black gene and will never have a black calf when bred to a (red) baldie cow. if bred to a (black) baldie cow, there is a 50-50 chance of a black calf because the cow could throw the black gene (& the calf would be black) or a red gene (to produce a red calf)

certherfbeef wrote:And a blk heifer calf out of a blue roan shorty and a herf cow. Only way to get her to throw a blk calf is to use a homo blk bull?


no, the black heifer is heterozygous which means she carries the red gene. if she's only bred to red bulls, half of her offspring would still be expected to be black. if she's bred to a heterozygous black bull, there's a 75% chance they'll have a black calf & a 25% chance the calf will be red.

certherfbeef wrote:What if I use the above mentioned bull on the above mentioned heifer???


50% chance of a black calf.

keep in mind, my answers are strictly discussing coat color & not bald-face or the shorthorn roaning effect.
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Postby Frankie » Thu May 12, 2005 10:16 am

dun wrote:Black is one of the diqualifying things for registering angus as other then commercial... dun


Not to be picky here, Dun, but black is a qualifer for registering Angus. It's apparently a disqualifer for registering Red Angus.

Don't want to confuse anyone else here even further than I'm already confused about this discussion.....
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Postby dun » Thu May 12, 2005 11:15 am

Correct. Since the discussion was about Red Angus, I assumed, but we know about assuming..............
Or maybe I forgot to put in red, your choice. I've slept since then so I'm not sure what I was thinking at the time

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Postby Beefy » Thu May 12, 2005 12:18 pm

another possibility could be some intact male calves running around about 9.5 months prior to those calves hitting the ground. just throwing out ideas here. wouldnt be the first time thats happened.
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Postby Jeanne - Simme Valley » Fri May 13, 2005 6:38 am

Well I flunked genetics 101 so this is how I understand what you guys are saying. My Black RA bull must have had a black parent? I will look up the spec's on the two and post them. I don't have the info with me right now.

Does this also explain why my Black RA Bull when bred to a Black Brangus sometimes throws a red calf? Yep, got one. See the red bull calf I posted above. My Black bull and one of my black Brangus cows.



This means your registration papers are PROBABLY incorrect. I would guess if the Red Angus Assn. knew he was black and is SUPPOSED to be out of two red parents, they would pull the papers. If he is registered & out of two red parents on paper - he needs to be DNA tested to see who his TRUE parents are.
And yes, your "black red angus" bull & your Black Brangus cow can have a red calf - IF the brangus cow is heterozygous black (carrying a black gene & red gene).
Genetics 101:
Cattle carry PAIRS of chromozones (sp?) they each pass ONE to their offspring - so the offspring than has two. They carry PAIRS for Polled/horned and PAIRS for color.
In the case of the POLLED/HORNED genes - polled is dominate over horned.
In the case of COLOR - black is dominate over red.
Dominate means that is the gene that will be expressed - shown.
So on color, they can carry BLACK/BLACK or BLACK/RED or RED/RED. The BLACK/BLACK & the BLACK/RED will be BLACK in color. The RED/RED will be RED in color.
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Postby flaboy » Fri May 13, 2005 7:09 am


In one of the semen catalogs there is black I think Simmenthal or Gelbvieh bull that everytime I see it I think he's red. But he's supposedly homo black.

dun


Ok, here is what I found out. I apparently have the opposite problem of Dun. When I first saw my bulls sire in the book it looked red. I looked it up his picture on the ranch web site he came from and they had a picture of him and he is BLACK. He carries the red gene they said. I tried get resize the picture but I had some problems getting viewable for this forum. Here are the details.

Basin EXT H695 is an outcross black red carrier bull sired by one of the all time great Angus bulls and out of our top producing
outcross cow family. H695 has EPDs that rank in the lightest 10% of the breed for BW, top 25% for MARB and top 30% for REA. The
grandam of H695, Basin Primrose 258, although born in ‘88, still has EPDs that rank in the top 10% for MILK and top 1% for REA.
Co-owned with Ole Farms. Semen available through ORIgen or Stevenson Basin.


BW WW Milk YW
EPD -3.3 EPD +23 EPD +14 EPD +42
Marb REA Fat
EPD +.16 EPD +.02 EPD +.02


Mystery solved. Sorry about the confusion but I am almost ready for "introduction to genetics 101". So it's almost true that you can teach an old dog something anyway...
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Re: bull

Postby noltrh » Mon May 22, 2017 5:00 pm

I sold a black full brangus to a fellow with black cows. 3 out 5 have been red.
I "think" I understand why now.
Also purchased meyer734 granddaughters. Person I'm getting from never produces two alike. Just got my first offspring. Best bull calf ever in 60 yeyears.
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Re: bull

Postby Son of Butch » Mon May 22, 2017 6:15 pm

noltrh wrote:Just got my first offspring. Best bull calf ever in 60 years.

For you? or In the entire universe?
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Re: bull

Postby Nesikep » Mon May 22, 2017 11:54 pm

Y'all do realize this is a 12 year old thread?
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